AGS Turn 1 Moves

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I would be interested to see Magnum's Rumanian dash. I played with it on several attempts and could never get it to work unfortunately. (By work, meaning the pocket held so that on turn two, I could attack units in the pocket and force surrender vs having them rout out of the pocket).

I've yet to see the AI break an encirclement which has a divisional+ wide lane down to Tarnopol and to the Romanian border. In fact, you can get a division down to the border and into supply and as far as I can tell, the Soviets just don't have the MPs to do much of anything which makes it problematic for a human player too - 16th or 17th panzer is more than capable of doing it. Gamey, meh, perhaps but not anywhere as like as gamey as the whole Lvov salient taking up residence behind a riverline further east on turn 2. Trying to hold the pocket with troops would be silly as the SU does have sufficient movement points to cut off isolated or poorly positioned units north of Tarnopol.

re. your encirclement. If you're pulling that much from AGC, you may as well try for a much bigger encirclement on the AGC/AGS boundary. Leastways you've then got the armoured force to have some fun driving east quickly. Course, it weakens AGN ultimately (assuming you're trying for the Minsk encirclement in AGC) but better to go big and bold than fiddle about with half-measures all over.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL:  Zebedee

I've yet to see the AI break an encirclement which has a divisional+ wide lane down to Tarnopol and to the Romanian border. In fact, you can get a division down to the border and into supply and as far as I can tell, the Soviets just don't have the MPs to do much of anything which makes it problematic for a human player too - 16th or 17th panzer is more than capable of doing it. Gamey, meh, perhaps but not anywhere as like as gamey as the whole Lvov salient taking up residence behind a riverline further east on turn 2. Trying to hold the pocket with troops would be silly as the SU does have sufficient movement points to cut off isolated or poorly positioned units north of Tarnopol.

re. your encirclement. If you're pulling that much from AGC, you may as well try for a much bigger encirclement on the AGC/AGS boundary. Leastways you've then got the armoured force to have some fun driving east quickly. Course, it weakens AGN ultimately (assuming you're trying for the Minsk encirclement in AGC) but better to go big and bold than fiddle about with half-measures all over.

I know the "dash for the border" works against the AI, but I have run several tests with both players on "human" and despite everything I have tried, I can break the encirclement. I figure I am missing something, but I have not seen a AAR yet that used that that I could not break and I was wondering what Magnum had cooking. One of the things on my opening move was I tried to be careful and "player proof" it so that it was a legit opening vs either AI or another player.

The diversion from AGC is not small, but it isn't the entire PG2 either. At least 3 of those non motorized divisions would be helping anyway, so my total diversion is 3 panzer/motorised infantry divisions, 1 motorized infantry regiment and 3 infantry divisions.

ORIGINAL:  Q-Ball

How did you get that unit off the Rough, Klydon? It takes something like 3-4 Divisions on Deliberate.  That unit is a b***h. 

Although, do you really NEED to get it off the Rough in your plan, since you blew away all the units north of it anyway?

Yes, 3 division deliberate attack. I have run this opening 8-9 times now testing it and have not gotten a "hold" on that yet. If I was on the ball better, I would probably reserve some ground support for that particular attack, but I have been running 110% air (that is to say no ground support at all) for the first turn.

The big reason I get rid of that sucker is rough in this game means just that for any attacking units. Even starving, that unit is not easy to kick out of there because of the terrain. Also by getting rid of it, it frees up the big stack of infantry to its west to move further east and south and not be screwed by the ZOC.

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

This was my move for AGS on turn 1 vs. the AI for my current AAR:

Especially the weak link in the north would have most likely been penetrated by a human with all this Soviet tanks around. I am not sure if I could have done anything to strengthen this point.

I am thinking a human would have a field day with that set up. It is however a very nice pocket and if you practiced it a few times you might execute it a little better and shore up the edges against breakins and breakouts.

Most of my AI games have been to practice and get to know the mechanics for future PBEM. I tend to form pockets keeping in mind all the devious ways a human could break them.

This thread has provided some pretty valuable information but it also has me second guessing my own localized AGS strategy.

It is quite possible to get to the Romanian border and make some decent sized pockets that are virtually unbreakable but what does one really gain from that if some juicy armored divisions can get away. The romanians getting lose one turn early does not seem to be a front breaker.

If you manage to make a large pocket in the center and grab a few more armored divisions what can get railed away down south that you would have grabbed with a Romanian lunge?

I love this game.

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I know the "dash for the border" works against the AI, but I have run several tests with both players on "human" and despite everything I have tried, I can break the encirclement. I figure I am missing something, but I have not seen a AAR yet that used that that I could not break and I was wondering what Magnum had cooking. One of the things on my opening move was I tried to be careful and "player proof" it so that it was a legit opening vs either AI or another player.

The diversion from AGC is not small, but it isn't the entire PG2 either. At least 3 of those non motorized divisions would be helping anyway, so my total diversion is 3 panzer/motorised infantry divisions, 1 motorized infantry regiment and 3 infantry divisions.

The idea isn't to try to hold the encirclement turn 1 in the south, it's to cut the rail access of the Lvov salient to set up the big encirclement turn 2. That's why there's little point trying to hold the thing down turn 1 unless you're willing to commit a major effort to it which lets more Sovjets elsewhere get away. If it helps legitimise it for you, think of it as an early precursor to what the Soviet cavalry divisions will be doing to you come winter - trashing rear areas, cutting supply lines and poking about in airfields and headquarter areas before up and running.

Think pulling the mobile forces down is fair enough, if the south is your priority, as AGS will need that help sooner or later. Depends a lot on what you think the priorities are and whether you can reach a suitable stop line for AGS quickly enough to pull off the big autumn 41 encirclements by swinging them up back north. Punch don't tickle though or you'll have not enough strength in either place to smash through the Soviet lines when they stiffen.

[randallw]

On turn 1 the Sov side has a penalty on MPs; those Germans on the eastern side of encirclement can be moved up to, but are there enough MPs for the Soviet side to launch deliberate attacks?  I wouldn't expect those Germans to be budged with anything less than multiple divisions on deliberate.

[notenome]

you can hold pockets with regiments, just set percent required to fly at the end of your turn to 10% and ground support to 200%, pretty much any soviet attack will get splashed. As for a drive to Romania being gamey, not at all. The original AGS plan was for Kleist to trap the Soviets against the Carpathians, and the Romanians were to begin to move after the encirclement had been completed. This took two weeks due to the hard fighting encountered by AGS, so the troops experienced a small slitzkrieg. To drive to the Romanian border on turn 1 is simply to execute the orignial plan better than historically. Of course any pocket in the south will have trouble holding due to the poor disposition/frozen state of most AGS mobile forces, thus tempting many players to at least borrow part of Guderian's assets.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

This was my move for AGS on turn 1 vs. the AI for my current AAR:

Especially the weak link in the north would have most likely been penetrated by a human with all this Soviet tanks around. I am not sure if I could have done anything to strengthen this point.

I am thinking a human would have a field day with that set up. It is however a very nice pocket and if you practiced it a few times you might execute it a little better and shore up the edges against breakins and breakouts.

Most of my AI games have been to practice and get to know the mechanics for future PBEM. I tend to form pockets keeping in mind all the devious ways a human could break them.

This thread has provided some pretty valuable information but it also has me second guessing my own localized AGS strategy.

It is quite possible to get to the Romanian border and make some decent sized pockets that are virtually unbreakable but what does one really gain from that if some juicy armored divisions can get away. The romanians getting lose one turn early does not seem to be a front breaker.

If you manage to make a large pocket in the center and grab a few more armored divisions what can get railed away down south that you would have grabbed with a Romanian lunge?

I love this game.

Indeed. Great fun.

That's actually a very nice pocket. I'd like to see attempts to break it with the major Soviet offensive power pinned by the 6th army (a critical point in any Rumanian gambit).

I'm going to try something with just AGS armor and see how it works. Will post results.

[CharonJr]

I just fooled around a bit with the t1 end of turn save and I was unable to pry open the pocket in 3 attempts. It looks like the pocket is more secure than I thought, even against a human.

The armor in the north has a unmodified CV of 200+, no way for the fairly weak in combination with low MP Soviets to break this one.

The weakest spot is the mot brigade to the south of Tarnopol, but even there the Soviets face a CV of 40+ and while I have been able to force them to retreat I lacked the MPs to open the pocket.

[Altaris]

It's definitely do-able to create this pocket, though I think you have to bring down at least one motorized and one panzer division from AGC to make it inpenetrable. I've done this on several testing runs, and it works like a charm. Takes 2-3 turns to clean up the pocket, but at least you get everything moving eastward and take out a sizeable chunk of the Russian southern forces with it. Definitely the best move on turn 1 for AGS, IMO.

[ComradeP]

CharonJr: are you sure the pocket can't be broken 2 hexes north of Tarnopol? The Rifle division needs to move 1 hex west and I'm guessing that most of the time the Soviets will have a unit that can move a single hex into enemy terrain and one hex through friendly terrain.

I remain convinced that for a truly successful pocket/opening move in the AGS area, you need Rovno.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

CharonJr: are you sure the pocket can't be broken 2 hexes north of Tarnopol? The Rifle division needs to move 1 hex west and I'm guessing that most of the time the Soviets will have a unit that can move a single hex into enemy terrain and one hex through friendly terrain.

I remain convinced that for a truly successful pocket/opening move in the AGS area, you need Rovno.

Rovno is tough with the swamp to the north and that rough to the south. You can't get there with infantry, so the motorized stuff has to do the heavy lifting.

Are you looking to capture it or trying to get the units around there surrounded? I am assuming you are making an effort here in order to get on the road to Kiev that much faster? It would be a lot of armor to get there and in the mean time, all that Soviet mass is open to get away to fight another day.

[ComradeP]

As I said: there's no combat unit there at the start of the scenario, so taking it on turn 1 is your best bet at taking it early. It also makes it much more difficult for the Soviets to establish their first line on the minor river just east of Rovno. In my game with notenome, every Soviet unit in the AGS area west of a line running from Rovno to the Romanian border was screwed.

If you give the Soviets time to move units into the swamps or Rovno, it's unlikely you'll capture the area before turn 3-4. It's all about protecting your own flanks, whilst turning those of the enemy.

[Altaris]

Well I took Rovno and secured the pocket between Poland and Romania on Turn 1, so both missions accomplished
 
Did have to take a little from AGC to do this, but nothing I couldn't afford to take.

[CharonJr]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

CharonJr: are you sure the pocket can't be broken 2 hexes north of Tarnopol? The Rifle division needs to move 1 hex west and I'm guessing that most of the time the Soviets will have a unit that can move a single hex into enemy terrain and one hex through friendly terrain.

I remain convinced that for a truly successful pocket/opening move in the AGS area, you need Rovno.

Will take a look at it, I only focused on breaking open the pocket by force, but you are right that it may be broken by simple movement. Will try again and tell you the results.

[CharonJr]

Yes, you were right, the 2 Soviet infantry divisions are able to make contact and open the pocket there. The Soviets will still be unable to get their forces out, but this will at least set back clearing the pocket by 1 turn and involve heavier fights.

[Mynok]

I tested this last night and as long as you convert the rail junction hexes south of Tarnopol, they Soviets cannot rail anything out.

[Flaviusx]

Pretty sure that pocket can be reopened. Sov can march into the two hexes north of the motorized division north of Tarnopol. That's the weak spot. Otherwise, the pocket is solid.

[Magnum88]

This is the set-up I try to get to in when driving to the Romanian border. I put it on Soviet Turn 1 and FoW off to see all the pertinent information. I had not moved some infantry up north that would fill some holes yet but the southern half is the area to scrutinize. The only regiments are GD north of Tarnopol holding the pocket in and the panzer division south of Tarnopol. GD is under no threat inside the pocket but is contesting ZOC if the pocket tries to move out. The other regiments are too far away from any strong enemies with 1-3 friendly hexes protecting them. Breaking the pocket would require moving through 2 ZOC and the Soviets do not have enough MPs to do this.

The gap just north of the southern most panzers could possibly be bridged but the Soviet motorized divison would have to have a morale of 56+ to make it the two enemy hexes required and a pocketed unit would have to be in position to get into the hex SW of the southern panzer regiment. Possible but not likely and the regiment could be moved 1 hex east to prevent this (ZOC-ZOC move for last hex--at least 8 MPs just for that).

[Mynok]

Why are all those hexes in the pocket but outside of Soviet ZOCs showing as under German control now? [&:]

[Q-Ball]

How about this move? Note that on this screenshot, I haven't moved any PANZERS yet, just used Infantry to clear lanes.

In this shot, though I haven't isolated a whole lot of units, there are many that cannot move more than 1 hex due to ZOCs, and will probably die in a week or two. This includes 4 more Inf/Mtn division, and 2 big Tank Divisions, in addition to the 2 large Tank Div that were isolated.

A key move I think it getting a 17th Army Inf unit adjacent to the Moutains in the south; this cuts-off several units.

I'll move the Panzers and post another shot.

Units in YELLOW are ones that can't move much, and are probably doomed.