What in the pipeline for new updates?

[Mehring]

A good Axis player would have taken Minsk on T1 anyway. That's the least of the Russian's worries.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Minsk industry was doomed anyway, the Germans could get next to the city on turn 1 making the rail there non functional, at least that is how I understand it.

[Mehring]

The Germans can also actually take Minsk on T1, I've done it twice, and Riga, though that doesn't have industry.

[ComradeP]

People expecting to steamroll infantry deployed on swamps assaulting with tank formations won't be having much more success than they have had so far, I think.

Considering that most of my attacks that were held were held at around 1.7:1, I'm fairly confident all of those would have succeeded without the modifier that has now been removed.

[kevini1000]

Yeah Minsk and Riga are easily takable on turn 1. Others might not agree but I actually now feel that both are a must do. Riga for certain as this opens up a big lane for the 18th army infantry to march through on turn 2 if no Russian routers interfere. Minsk could wait but why not plus I want those hexes converted to friendly for turn 2 action as well.

Since the new patch is due out I guess I'll restart again since I'm not that far into anyway. I only moved AGN and AGC so far. I little easier time in swamps might make things better as well the rail repair units movement fixed. I post some maps for AGN/AGC sections. I made the pockets very small and mostly contained. I want as little interference with my turn 2 movement as possible. The lanes for the infantry is very wide and long.

Sath

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: Mehring

A good Axis player would have taken Minsk on T1 anyway. That's the least of the Russian's worries.

I don't think it's as easy as you think. Also, you talking about hitting it with your mobile units which will take some serious loses in that attack against units in Urban . Also, marching that far with your units will add lots fatigue just before attacking. I've have got next to Minsk and had a large strong pocket, but have never seen a good attack on it without giving up something else that would be a more 'sure thing'. So I'm going to run some tests on the EASY TAKING MINSK theory, because I don't think it's easy (without sacrificing too much). Also, I don't think the loses might be worth it if the attack succeeds or even worse fails.

[Mehring]

kirkgregeson, I'm open to being proved wrong, but I suspect that many of the changes being effected in the upcoming beta are the consequence of players not knowing how to maximise the Axis potential. If you make sure you have a couple of motorised units in command radius you can take Minsk easily in T1 and move on accross the Berezina T2. There's no great sacrifice, just understanding what's possible. You should also wipe out 6200+ Russian planes on T1, striking deep inland at the long range bases. I've missed any post on this forum that mentions such possibilities.

[kevini1000]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

ORIGINAL: Mehring

A good Axis player would have taken Minsk on T1 anyway. That's the least of the Russian's worries.

I don't think it's as easy as you think. Also, you talking about hitting it with your mobile units which will take some serious loses in that attack against units in Urban . Also, marching that far with your units will add lots fatigue just before attacking. I've have got next to Minsk and had a large strong pocket, but have never seen a good attack on it without giving up something else that would be a more 'sure thing'. So I'm going to run some tests on the EASY TAKING MINSK theory, because I don't think it's easy (without sacrificing too much). Also, I don't think the loses might be worth it if the attack succeeds or even worse fails.

Well I have a Panzer kill stack with 2 Panzer and 1 Mot division of the 3rd Panzer group with the corps is commanded by Model. The other Panzer corps clears the way. Then these guys move adjacent and have the HQ with Model right beside them. From my experiementing I would say you have about a 95%+ first try success rate on winnning this battle. This is actually being very conservative. I all most never see this fail. The thing that really helps is the Russian infantry divisions in Minsk are in reserve status. Not always but usually 1 or 2 of them will assigned as reserves to a battle in the Hex just North West of Minsk. I use my biggest Panzer division from the other Panzer corps for this battle. The Russian's typically take really big losses here. I think this tends to maul up those units a bit prior to the kill stack hitting them. Also if they are in reserve status, doesn't that make them fight not as well.

Sath

[ComradeP]

I'm still not buying the stuff about people not maximizing Axis potential, it just completely ignores the difficulties the Axis face.

Let's say you get to the Dnepr on turn 3, maybe even cross it. Then what? A competent Soviet player deploys a carpet that you can't really break with mobile units and slows your advance down to a crawl. The units you rout are often combat capable again on the Soviet part of the turn. Your mobile units by themselves cause low losses to the Soviets, and by the time your infantry catches up (turn 4-5), you're stuck in a web of Soviet units that will take some turns to move through.

If anything, people seem to overestimate what they can do with the Axis after playing some Soviet players who are still learning.

Although I've heard some people say by now that the Axis can perform better than they're doing in some games, including in my game with notenome, I haven't actually seen anybody offer proof for such statements, which makes them kind of hollow.

[karonagames]

kirkgregeson, I'm open to being proved wrong, but I suspect that many of the changes being effected in the upcoming beta are the consequence of players not knowing how to maximise the Axis potential. If you make sure you have a couple of motorised units in command radius you can take Minsk easily in T1 and move on accross the Berezina T2. There's no great sacrifice, just understanding what's possible. You should also wipe out 6200+ Russian planes on T1, striking deep inland at the long range bases. I've missed any post on this forum that mentions such possibilities.

No, four testers who know how to handle the Axis all agreed that Axis performance had changed dramatically compared to the test versions they had played 3-6 months previously.

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I'm still not buying the stuff about people not maximizing Axis potential, it just completely ignores the difficulties the Axis face.

Let's say you get to the Dnepr on turn 3, maybe even cross it. Then what? A competent Soviet player deploys a carpet that you can't really break with mobile units and slows your advance down to a crawl. The units you rout are often combat capable again on the Soviet part of the turn. Your mobile units by themselves cause low losses to the Soviets, and by the time your infantry catches up (turn 4-5), you're stuck in a web of Soviet units that will take some turns to move through.

If anything, people seem to overestimate what they can do with the Axis after playing some Soviet players who are still learning.

Although I've heard some people say by now that the Axis can perform better than they're doing in some games, including in my game with notenome, I haven't actually seen anybody offer proof for such statements, which makes them kind of hollow.

That's because there's no proof. They may have some games as axis vs AI, which I'll just disregard as far as anything legitimate for play balancing. From what I know there are three games that have PBEM human vs human which suggest the real issues for axis in 41 and 42:

- my(axis) PBEM with friend (equal skill)
- ComradeP(axis) vs notename (notename actually acknowledges in AAR start that he feels novice with sov)
- abulbulian (axis) vs bwheately

have yet to see one game since sale of WitE that has any proof to the contrary of the issues facing the axis

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: Mehring

kirkgregeson, I'm open to being proved wrong, but I suspect that many of the changes being effected in the upcoming beta are the consequence of players not knowing how to maximise the Axis potential. If you make sure you have a couple of motorised units in command radius you can take Minsk easily in T1 and move on accross the Berezina T2. There's no great sacrifice, just understanding what's possible. You should also wipe out 6200+ Russian planes on T1, striking deep inland at the long range bases. I've missed any post on this forum that mentions such possibilities.

funny stuff, having an HQ in command radius does not reduce the fatigue these units (and damages to component items) that are suffered when you move that far and attack. So you might be able to take it at some %, but next turn what type of shape will those mobile unit be in? And what else are you sacrifices to have this attack as opposed to large pockets of sov troops.

Sure you can take Riga on T1 too maybe, but is it the SMART thing to do? I don't think so. I'd rather pocket it (yeah it gets naval supply, but not outside that hext). I can take it at my leisure on T2 or T3 with INF and not risk loses to my mobile units.

[Mehring]

Any of you guys want to, and have time, to put it to the test? I'd love to see a Russian defence able to stop me. Well, I'd have mixed feelings of course, but I'd suffer the indignity of losing for the sake of giving the Russians a chance.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Any of you guys want to, and have time, to put it to the test? I'd love to see a Russian defence able to stop me. Well, I'd have mixed feelings of course, but I'd suffer the indignity of losing for the sake of giving the Russians a chance.

I'm be happy to play you using the current version and that we stay on that version so you can see what I had to go through up to 42. Anything less that that and it wouldn't be comparing similar experiences. You might even convince me to play on with the new patch (so we didn't have to swap WarinTheEast.exe each time we wanted to play new version). I don't think the new patch addresses all the issue facing the axis, but it's a start.

I've seen some people boast about no real play balance issues or that maybe several of us don't know how to play axis (including ComradeP). I think that is garbage because they have absolutely no proof of this statement, just a lot of nonsense talk IMO.

So you want some 'indignity ', I'll be happy to oblige. Even though I've never played more than 1 turn against a non-AI. I think bwheately would be a better person to give you some perspective on all the axis short comings. Would bet the house in this current version he'd mopped the floor with you. That's just my opinion. [;)]

[X(]

There should be a game out there for a 41-45 campaign for axis player... if nobody has taken it since am

[Mehring]

abulbulian, I took your game. Thanks, always looking to learn.

Edit: Oops. Can we change to movement FOW too?

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: Mehring

abulbulian, I took your game. Thanks, always looking to learn.

yes, been there and done that already with axis. So I'm happy to enlighten other folks as well.

[Zort]

Hope you guys will post an AAR so we can see how it goes also!!  Thanks.

[Mehring]

Yes, I'll do an AAR.

abulbullian, can you post another game with full FOW?

[abulbulian]

I can later when I get home. Why full FOW? I didn't play that with Bill. Home in few hrs or less.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I saw that, no more competant Romanians (nurtured through slow cooperative combat) on the line in 1942 if it goes through. Now they will be fit for garrison duty is about all.

I think it is a fair exchange for slowing down the growth of an army of Spetsnaz elite combat units!

Yea i agree. It will be nice having a 42 where i'm not storming all over germany.