Hedgehog defense

[edub180]

It took me a while, but I have finally gotten to my first blizzard playing the 41 GC as the Germans with random weather. Not doing bad so far, but then again I'm just playing the AI to learn the game mechanics. Now the blizzard is causing some serious casualties and I'm starting to have to give way to counterattacks by the AI.
I have read about the different types of defense that can be employed, but I am wondering if the hedgehog defense, as it was employed by the Germans historically, is an option in the game. From what I have seen so far, I have little hope that any hedgehogs would survive for more than one or two turns, even when I airlift supplies in.

[morvael]

Wasn't it a defense method on tactical level instead of grand operational? I imagine a split division (3 regiments over 3 hexes, 30 miles) would employ such methods, but in this scale it will not be visible.

[cookie monster]

http://www.witewiki.com/index.php/Defensive_Techniques

[Aditia]

I think hedgehog defense was a defensive position used by exploiting units to prevent their positions from being overrun during the night, and no tactical defensive formations are not modeled

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: edub180
It took me a while, but I have finally gotten to my first blizzard playing the 41 GC as the Germans with random weather. Not doing bad so far, but then again I'm just playing the AI to learn the game mechanics. Now the blizzard is causing some serious casualties and I'm starting to have to give way to counterattacks by the AI.
I have read about the different types of defense that can be employed, but I am wondering if the hedgehog defense, as it was employed by the Germans historically, is an option in the game. From what I have seen so far, I have little hope that any hedgehogs would survive for more than one or two turns, even when I airlift supplies in.

AFAIK hedgehog defence means positions which are prepared for all-round defence, so that they can be defended even when surrounded, or by-passed by enemy units. This is a tactical position and is not represented at the scale that WiTE works. [:)]

[edub180]

Let me explain what I mean; in December 1941 Hitler gave a "no retreat" order, forbidding any further retreats in the face of Russian counterattacks. As a result, several large German formations were cut of and surrounded, leaving them with no choice but to form a "hedgehog" defense.
In Demyansk for example, as a result of the Russian counterattacks in the Moscow area, six German divisions were encircled in early February, but managed to defend themselves until the pocket was reopened in mid April.
Kholm was encircled in January and the pocket was relieved in May. There are more examples.
The Luftwaffe supplied these Hedgehogs by air, and since they occupied important railroad hubs, they denied the red army of the supply infrastructure to stay on the offensive.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: edub180

Let me explain what I mean; in December 1941 Hitler gave a "no retreat" order, forbidding any further retreats in the face of Russian counterattacks. As a result, several large German formations were cut of and surrounded, leaving them with no choice but to form a "hedgehog" defense.
In Demyansk for example, as a result of the Russian counterattacks in the Moscow area, six German divisions were encircled in early February, but managed to defend themselves until the pocket was reopened in mid April.
Kholm was encircled in January and the pocket was relieved in May. There are more examples.
The Luftwaffe supplied these Hedgehogs by air, and since they occupied important railroad hubs, they denied the red army of the supply infrastructure to stay on the offensive.

As you rightly note, these are generally referred to as 'pockets'. Hedgehog defensive positions are typically regarded as tactical solutions - units in all round defense with interlocking arcs of fire between adjacent units and this is beyond the scale of the game, IMO.

[edub180]

In the winter of 41/42 that tactical level concept was applied to the strategic level by the Germans. While it is a pocket, I would say at the strategic level you are letting the enemy encircle you. You have the forces to break out of the pocket if you want to.
Those 6 divisions could have retreated to friendly lines from Demyansk, but they were simply not allowed to.

Back to my basic question; is there anything I can do to not make my units go CV 1 only one turn after being cut-off? I am thinking of forming corps-strength hedgehogs around mayor cities that are important rail hubs to slow the soviet counterattack. I'd just like to play with a historic "no retreat" stance.

[Redmarkus5]

For some reason units do not appear to draw supply from cities - not even from most major cities. So, if they get cut off your only option is air supply, and that's limited.

I agree that you should be able to hold out in a pocket for many months, but in WiTE even 6th Armee at Stalingrad collapses after one turn cut off. Suggest you lobby for a change

[Cerion]

For some reason units do not appear to draw supply from cities - not even from most major cities. So, if they get cut off your only option is air supply, and that's limited.

I agree that you should be able to hold out in a pocket for many months, but in WiTE even 6th Armee at Stalingrad collapses after one turn cut off. Suggest you lobby for a change

+1

[edub180]

When I isolated Moscow and Leningrad, it took several turns until I was able to overcome the resistance of the encircled troops, they didn't go to CV 1 right on the next turn. But I assume this would not work the same way for the Germans in winter 41/42, despite massive air supply capabilities.

I mean, look at all the new air transport units that are transfered to the eastern front in that winter. They were sent there because air supply became an integral part of the supply system.

I don't understand why the siege of Leningrad is so accurately modeled in this game (with supply across the lake etc), but the fact that many of the historic battles for pockets took months was ignored.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: edub180

When I isolated Moscow and Leningrad, it took several turns until I was able to overcome the resistance of the encircled troops, they didn't go to CV 1 right on the next turn. But I assume this would not work the same way for the Germans in winter 41/42, despite massive air supply capabilities.

I mean, look at all the new air transport units that are transfered to the eastern front in that winter. They were sent there because air supply became an integral part of the supply system.

I don't understand why the siege of Leningrad is so accurately modeled in this game (with supply across the lake etc), but the fact that many of the historic battles for pockets took months was ignored.

+1

[Great_Ajax]

Two reasons. The first is that you can never program in the historical human factor in decision making. Second, the players know far too much about the strategic sitaution than the actual combantants did. I will preface my statements here by saying that I do not know if the game 100% accurately portrays isolated units' ability to fight.

Also, everyone likes to use the Stalingrad pocket as the benchmark of how well isolated German units fought compared to the game. It seems to me that many people believe that 6th Army fought under a continuous and furious hail storm of Soviet assaults from 19 November 1942 until its final surrender on 31 January 1943. So why can't the 6th Army in game hold out the 10 turns that they did historically?

Fact is that the assault on the pocket was not a furious and continuous assault on the 6th Army. In less than a week after the encircelment was completed, Stalin ordered a halt to further attacks on the kessel until a plan was devised and reinforcements brought in. The Soviets would not launch a major assault until 10 January or about 5-6 turns. When it did launch its assault, it was composed of seven infantry armies without any Tank Corps or Mechanized Corps. Within a week of this assault, the 76th, 384th, 44th, 376th, 3rd Motorized, and 29th Motorized Divisions were almost completely destroyed and had to retreat into Stalingrad proper. The average strength of these divisions was 600 men. On 17 January, the Soviets paused again for a week to resupply and consolidate. On 22nd January, the Soviets launched its next assault pushing the Germans into Stalingrad proper with the Germans finally surrendering on 31 January 1943.

So where does the human element come from? Well, any human player worth his salt is probably just going to mass his force and crush the Stalingrad pocket which it can because a Soviet player already knows his strength and the German weakness. We already know the sad shape of the 6th Army and how it drained its strength on the assault of the city. We also know that those Tank Corps and Mech Corps as well as the new Rifle Corps are pretty powerful units. The real Soviets in 1942 didn't know these things. It was late Novemeber before Stalin realized how many troops they had actually encircled and then decided to delay to assault to make sure they were ready because he did not have confidence that his forces on the ground could do the job.

I would be interested to see the results of a human vs. human game in "Red Army Resurgent" which tries to replicate the actual attack. The Soviets get the first two turns to encircle and assault the pocket. Once the pocket is airtight, the Soviets have to sit under 10 January to launch its attacks and it can't use Tank and Mech Corps to launch its assaults.

Trey

ORIGINAL: edub180

When I isolated Moscow and Leningrad, it took several turns until I was able to overcome the resistance of the encircled troops, they didn't go to CV 1 right on the next turn. But I assume this would not work the same way for the Germans in winter 41/42, despite massive air supply capabilities.

I mean, look at all the new air transport units that are transfered to the eastern front in that winter. They were sent there because air supply became an integral part of the supply system.

I don't understand why the siege of Leningrad is so accurately modeled in this game (with supply across the lake etc), but the fact that many of the historic battles for pockets took months was ignored.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Two reasons. The first is that you can never program in the historical human factor in decision making. Second, the players know far too much about the strategic sitaution than the actual combantants did. I will preface my statements here by saying that I do not know if the game 100% accurately portrays isolated units' ability to fight.

Also, everyone likes to use the Stalingrad pocket as the benchmark of how well isolated German units fought compared to the game. It seems to me that many people believe that 6th Army fought under a continuous and furious hail storm of Soviet assaults from 19 November 1942 until its final surrender on 31 January 1943. So why can't the 6th Army in game hold out the 10 turns that they did historically?

Fact is that the assault on the pocket was not a furious and continuous assault on the 6th Army. In less than a week after the encircelment was completed, Stalin ordered a halt to further attacks on the kessel until a plan was devised and reinforcements brought in. The Soviets would not launch a major assault until 10 January or about 5-6 turns. When it did launch its assault, it was composed of seven infantry armies without any Tank Corps or Mechanized Corps. Within a week of this assault, the 76th, 384th, 44th, 376th, 3rd Motorized, and 29th Motorized Divisions were almost completely destroyed and had to retreat into Stalingrad proper. The average strength of these divisions was 600 men. On 17 January, the Soviets paused again for a week to resupply and consolidate. On 22nd January, the Soviets launched its next assault pushing the Germans into Stalingrad proper with the Germans finally surrendering on 31 January 1943.

So where does the human element come from? Well, any human player worth his salt is probably just going to mass his force and crush the Stalingrad pocket which it can because a Soviet player already knows his strength and the German weakness. We already know the sad shape of the 6th Army and how it drained its strength on the assault of the city. We also know that those Tank Corps and Mech Corps as well as the new Rifle Corps are pretty powerful units. The real Soviets in 1942 didn't know these things. It was late Novemeber before Stalin realized how many troops they had actually encircled and then decided to delay to assault to make sure they were ready because he did not have confidence that his forces on the ground could do the job.

I would be interested to see the results of a human vs. human game in "Red Army Resurgent" which tries to replicate the actual attack. The Soviets get the first two turns to encircle and assault the pocket. Once the pocket is airtight, the Soviets have to sit under 10 January to launch its attacks and it can't use Tank and Mech Corps to launch its assaults.

Trey

Everything you say above is true and I really like your scenarios, but the main reason why human players attack the Stalingrad pocket in your "Red Army Resurgent" case is that they can see the 6th Army's CV values plummet immediately after the encirclement. Until that is fixed in the game engine, human WiTE decision making is going to be based on a completely different set of factors to Soviet decision making and is unlikely to take the same direction without loads of house rules etc.

I would prefer to see the game provide a basis for such large pockets to hold out for a few months in certain cases, especially when based on a large industrial city post-41, and to present a sufficient threat/defense capability that the human player has to proceed carefully. As you say above, Stalin didn't have confidence that he had the forces to do the job. When I played the scenario I had 100% confidence I could wipe 6th Army from the map in 2 turns due to the massive CV hit.