Out of Pilots Again

[michaelm75au]

Pilots are already pruned to remove the inactive pilots (KIA or MIA) with the lowest kills first ( and then increasing upto 10) when the number of free pilots is reaching its limit.

[castor troy]

Anyone know a more or less exact number of the total aircraft on the map for a, let´s say, scenario 2 PBEM entering 45? Must be tens of thousands as I´ve got something like 2500+ carrier based aircraft alone as the Allied. The KIA/MIA in my PBEM don´t seem to be really a problem because entering 45 I´ve got only something like 3000, at least only 3000 are shown as total KIA/MIA, so 1000 every year in the end. Still I´m very afraid of having the PBEM stopped due to running out of slots. [:(]

[witpqs]

Michael,

In-game people use the extra pilots in squadrons to train a larger number faster. I have gotten away from that as I believe I am seeing that #pilots=#planes trains fastest. Second, in-game having extra pilots in a squadron results in having pilots available who have less fatigue. Provided that the planes are kept in repair, that makes a difference. Also, on average new planes can be brought in more quickly than pilots for most plane types. Then look at the USN carrier squadrons. They can get new planes that are ready to fly from the "Replacement" carrier squadrons. If they don't have at least a few extra pilots then those planes are useless.

IRL some USN carrier squadrons started the war with a large number of extra pilots. Overall, AFAIK the practice was to have a crew for each plane. However, the air general under MacArthur (was that Kenney?) put forth and adopted the practice of having as many extra crews as he could get so as to keep the planes flying with fresh crews. He stated that his ideal was a 2 to 1 ratio of crews to planes.

So, IRL it was a mixed bag. In the game, we do need some extra pilots due to the dynamics involved (delay times, planes flying in from "Replacement" squadrons, etc.). I do not usually get close to 1/3, except small squadrons (say 8 planes, having 10 pilots is the truncated figure for 1/3).

Hopes this info helps.

[witpqs]

Michael,

Let me further add that as a game-play aid, being able to add extra pilots is vital because of the game mechanics of moving pilots to the reserve. I'll illustrate.

Take the example of a squadron that withdraws at any future date. The game does not allow the player to remove pilots from the squadron if #pilots <= max#planes. So, to use this squadron for training pilots (essential for the Allied player), he must add a new (or unskilled pilot from the Reserve) before sending a trained pilot to the Reserve.

If you take away the ability to add pilots above and beyond the max#planes, then all of those squadrons (and there are a lot of them) will no longer be able to be used for training by the Allied player. This would be a devastating change.

Having the ability to press "Get Pilot" and "Get Veteran" even when the squadron is full is essential. Having the "Get x Pilots", where x is the extra 1/3, saves a lot of clicking and/or moving back and forth between screens for the player.

I know that we are dealing with the pilot array getting full. The issue is that squadrons which withdraw do not allow you to remove pilots unless they have "extra" pilots. So, unless that restriction is removed, taking away the ability to add extra pilots means those squadrons could not be used for training.

[foliveti]

I regularly keep squadrons at maximum pilots and have found that pilot fatigue rarely is a factor.&nbsp; This is true even when I have them flying missions every day.&nbsp; Which does not really seem to be right, but that seems to be the way the game engine works.&nbsp; I have never gotten out of 1942, so I have not seen the pilot limit, but it is good to start thinking about it.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Michael,

In-game people use the extra pilots in squadrons to train a larger number faster. I have gotten away from that as I believe I am seeing that #pilots=#planes trains fastest. Second, in-game having extra pilots in a squadron results in having pilots available who have less fatigue. Provided that the planes are kept in repair, that makes a difference. Also, on average new planes can be brought in more quickly than pilots for most plane types. Then look at the USN carrier squadrons. They can get new planes that are ready to fly from the "Replacement" carrier squadrons. If they don't have at least a few extra pilots then those planes are useless.

IRL some USN carrier squadrons started the war with a large number of extra pilots. Overall, AFAIK the practice was to have a crew for each plane. However, the air general under MacArthur (was that Kenney?) put forth and adopted the practice of having as many extra crews as he could get so as to keep the planes flying with fresh crews. He stated that his ideal was a 2 to 1 ratio of crews to planes.

So, IRL it was a mixed bag. In the game, we do need some extra pilots due to the dynamics involved (delay times, planes flying in from "Replacement" squadrons, etc.). I do not usually get close to 1/3, except small squadrons (say 8 planes, having 10 pilots is the truncated figure for 1/3).

Hopes this info helps.

if you draw from replacement squadrons then you also draw these pilots though.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

if you draw from replacement squadrons then you also draw these pilots though.

That's bad - those guys are awful! I have to use them for training squadrons because the USN doesn't get land-based squadrons to train with until much later.

[CaptDave]

It seems to me that a small number of pilots should be available above the number of aircraft.&nbsp; These would represent the various staff positions filled by pilots.&nbsp; Even those who didn't fly regularly still flew missions to maintain their competency, fill in for those in the hospital, etc.

I do sympathize with the arguments about rotating pilots in and out of training squadrons.&nbsp; But while I don't do it any less than anyone else, the practice of cherry-picking pilots from a group that's withdrawing doesn't seem right.&nbsp; If the higher-ups rotated a group out, that included their pilots; the best didn't get the option to stay in theater.&nbsp; A local commander may now and then have done his best to keep someone around, but certainly not with the frequency we all try to do so.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: CaptDave

It seems to me that a small number of pilots should be available above the number of aircraft.  These would represent the various staff positions filled by pilots.  Even those who didn't fly regularly still flew missions to maintain their competency, fill in for those in the hospital, etc.

I do sympathize with the arguments about rotating pilots in and out of training squadrons.  But while I don't do it any less than anyone else, the practice of cherry-picking pilots from a group that's withdrawing doesn't seem right.  If the higher-ups rotated a group out, that included their pilots; the best didn't get the option to stay in theater.  A local commander may now and then have done his best to keep someone around, but certainly not with the frequency we all try to do so.

When you deliberately put pilots into the unit for the purpose of training them and pulling them out, that is not cherry picking the unit before it withdraws. In fact, except for the groups that withdraw very early, you go through several cycles of putting new pilots in and pulling trained pilots out. That is not cherry picking by any stretch of the imagination.

[CaptDave]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: CaptDave

It seems to me that a small number of pilots should be available above the number of aircraft.  These would represent the various staff positions filled by pilots.  Even those who didn't fly regularly still flew missions to maintain their competency, fill in for those in the hospital, etc.

I do sympathize with the arguments about rotating pilots in and out of training squadrons.  But while I don't do it any less than anyone else, the practice of cherry-picking pilots from a group that's withdrawing doesn't seem right.  If the higher-ups rotated a group out, that included their pilots; the best didn't get the option to stay in theater.  A local commander may now and then have done his best to keep someone around, but certainly not with the frequency we all try to do so.

When you deliberately put pilots into the unit for the purpose of training them and pulling them out, that is not cherry picking the unit before it withdraws. In fact, except for the groups that withdraw very early, you go through several cycles of putting new pilots in and pulling trained pilots out. That is not cherry picking by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry, let me clarify: my remark was aimed at front-line units that are to be withdrawn, not groups being used for training. When a unit is purposely being used for training, then this tactic is certainly more than acceptable.

[witpqs]

Generally speaking, the front line units which withdraw send planes and pilots to your pools anyway. I'm sure there are a few that don't, but it seems the great majority do.

[inqistor]

Actually, what happens to pilots in perma-withdrawn Allied units?

Not that they will be seen again, so they can be safely deleted immediately. That should save few hundred slots (if not already done).

[erstad]

So, here's an actual in-game status.

PBEM, Scenario 1, October 44. We have 37557 pilots active, and about 12000 more planes due to come in. Don't know about my opponent, but I have "some" pilots in reserve and excess in groups.

There's also 1000 WIA/KIA pilots that I assume might get pruned in a future patch.

Bottom line is we'll probably make it without excessive difficulty, although we might need to do a little management. Not that a larger limit would be nicer, but it doesn't seem like a showstopper on Scen 1.

[AirGriff]

I vote for a "Fire the Pilot" button in addition to some preemptive house rules restricting squadrons to something like 10 percent over the paper strength. Hopefully, a careful watch of things would avoid the need for firing pilots, but the button would be a necessity if needed.

Another question for those encountering this problem. Is the game killing off pilots in your active squadrons? That, I believe, was the most serious problem in my last WITP PBEM. The system was stripping out experienced pilots gobs at a time to keep beneath the limit. Is this happening in AE, or is it just keeping you from adding pilots to your squadrons?

[thegreatwent]

The fire the pilot option would be nice. If I've understood the discussion thus, far pilots are not disappearing in Jzanes game. They just can no longer be added.

[Sredni]

Will this issue come up vs the AI? If the array is shared between both sides then it shouldn't be a problem I hope. The AI doesn't seem to do any real training I don't think so no reserves, but it does seem to hold onto groups that would normally withdraw.

My reserve pools are a huge mess though. Emphasis on huge. I got sick and tired of trying to train all of the pilots with 50xp and mediocre skills that take twice as long to train up and just dumped any like that in the reserve to train fresh pilots from the pools, so my reserves are full of retard pilots with 50xp and 50 airskill or 50xp and 50 navB and nothing else. I've considered going through and drawing these pilots into a group that needs to disband (thus deleting them?) but that would be a loooot of work (plus a little silly to have a group disband with a thousand pilots in it heh). A delete pilot button would be nice.

Removing our ability to go up to 133% pilots in each group would have big consequences.

the practice of cherry-picking pilots from a group that's withdrawing doesn't seem right.

It does seem cheesy, however from what I've read this would be SOP with any real life commander who has a choice.

[castor troy]

This is how my PBEM looks like, 12/44. I fear we´re very close to real trouble. [:(] I´ve got nearly 35000 pilots alone, I wonder that we haven´t gone through the 50000 already, looks like this PBEM is about to be shut down soon.

[erstad]

This is how my PBEM looks like, 12/44. I fear we´re very close to real trouble. I´ve got nearly 35000 pilots alone, I wonder that we haven´t gone through the 50000 already, looks like this PBEM is about to be shut down soon.

Well, note that you've got >8000 inactive pilots, and >2000 pilots scheduled to come in later. The 8000 would be general reserve, TRACOM, and scenario pilots without an airgroup (this last category should be small). And I don't believe that these 10,000 pilots includes pilots in group reserve. So you're not in danger of running out of pilots any time soon. Although 15K-ish seems a little low for the Japanese.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: erstad

This is how my PBEM looks like, 12/44. I fear we´re very close to real trouble. I´ve got nearly 35000 pilots alone, I wonder that we haven´t gone through the 50000 already, looks like this PBEM is about to be shut down soon.

Well, note that you've got >8000 inactive pilots, and >2000 pilots scheduled to come in later. The 8000 would be general reserve, TRACOM, and scenario pilots without an airgroup (this last category should be small). And I don't believe that these 10,000 pilots includes pilots in group reserve. So you're not in danger of running out of pilots any time soon. Although 15K-ish seems a little low for the Japanese.

This is correct - on another note Castor have you guys noticed the new beta which allows the culling of pilots. This game has no need to shut down unless you don't want to manage what you have. 8626 pilots in general reserve is somewhat excessive imho - start using these when drawing pilots.

PM sent

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: erstad

This is how my PBEM looks like, 12/44. I fear we´re very close to real trouble. I´ve got nearly 35000 pilots alone, I wonder that we haven´t gone through the 50000 already, looks like this PBEM is about to be shut down soon.

Well, note that you've got >8000 inactive pilots, and >2000 pilots scheduled to come in later. The 8000 would be general reserve, TRACOM, and scenario pilots without an airgroup (this last category should be small). And I don't believe that these 10,000 pilots includes pilots in group reserve. So you're not in danger of running out of pilots any time soon. Although 15K-ish seems a little low for the Japanese.

This is correct - on another note Castor have you guys noticed the new beta which allows the culling of pilots. This game has no need to shut down unless you don't want to manage what you have. 8626 pilots in general reserve is somewhat excessive imho - start using these when drawing pilots.

PM sent

We´re still using the latest official patch, I´m a bit reluctant on upgrading to a beta patch in a PBEM that has been going for so long already. I´ve been shifting around reserve pilots for the last halve year, guess only every third or fourth pilot I draw has been from the replacement pool. 8000 seems a lot and I´ve long thought I would have skilled pilots of each and every type for the next 25 years but if you think about the numbers you need when 50 CVE come in then you realize you will need 1000+ skilled fighter pilots for these CVE alone (or go with the underskilled rookies that are nothing but victims). Then the USAAF bomber groups suddenly show up in big numbers, you realize you need hundreds of skilled bomber pilots. Now that we´re closing in on 45, I´ve just realized that my USN CV are getting their VBF squadrons, guess what, I now need 500 pilots for them, best would be to have them trained on air and lownav/lowgrd. I realized that too late so these pilots aren´t available anyway, don´t know how to handle that issue at the moment, I don´t even have enough trained USN fighter pilots to send 500+ into these squadrons. So I could send back all those VB bomber pilots and have them being trained for the VBF, takes me 6 months though (if you want them to have air and one of the bombing skills, not even talking about the second bombing skill), so this would mean all those Corsair squadrons are of no use until mid 45 if I start to train now, if I start to train now, I would have to find squadrons for 500 replacement pilots and start to train, but this again would add 500 pilots.

A long time during the game I´ve thought "I will never run out of these or those pilot types" and had to experience that I actually did run out of trained pilots of every major type. Last time it happened was the time when the USMC squadrons went from 18 to 24 aircraft, so I had to add a lot of pilots and found out that I was then short of USMC fighter pilots and I was doing training since day one of the PBEM and IMO it was by far not as bloody as the usual games we see. [X(]