French Aircraft

[el cid again]

I have done something similar - in particular adding Royal Thai Army and Royal Thai Navy HQ. My test game player is French, and he says "Indochina is complicated" - which is surely true. In the end, I decided to put in Indochina units on both sides. Northern Viet Nam is ruled in fact by the Viet Ming Provisional Government - and not far South - at Viet Tri - you have a French Foreign Legion regiment that ultimately fights its way North to China. Long ago I put it in when the Japanese take over (and its march) occurred - but I never like imposing late war decisions on players. So now it is in the game day one - but under a house rule to behave unless the Japanese attack.

These two "units" - the VC and the FFL - caused code to release other units meant to represent Vichy troops I am told. I found out how to define their formations - so they can be made more appropriate in size and weapons - and they are indeed not willing to move under Japanese orders. I do not see how to add a Vichy air force - or on what side? So the only French air force is FF - in Tahita (one tiny unit) and on ships.

Thailand also should have troops on both sides. On the first day of the war I have the Sixth Division spread out where it really was - supported by various miitary schools, police formations, and an air force ground detachment - to resist the invasion of the Kra Isthmus - then disappear. But other elements of the RTA reappear later in the war - in fact the commander of the RTN led the formation of a force and an operation to take over IJA HQ in Bangkok. But from late December 1941 until Spring 1944 - the RTA and RTAF actually are an axis force - and even invade "allied" territory. In quotes because I think it is reasonable to believe, as Thais do, that it was "really" Thai territory stolen from Thailand (at least in the case of Indochina and Malaya - not so much Burma) by Imperial Britian and France.

More important, in both countries. locations do not start all on one side -- their local economies do not work for Japan until integrated by capture of the "wrong side" locations - and make it clear why troops are not entirely avialable for offensives in other places early in the war?? This may contribute to taking longer to conquer Malaya and Burma than in games without that complexity - so I hope.

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If there ever is a WiTP2, the Axis side needs to have defined nationalities for the puppets (Thailand, Vichy, Manchuko, etc) and even Germany (who operated a handful of subs and surface raiders in the Indian Ocean).

Well, Vichy was not an axis puppet. Notably, Indochina army faced several time the japanese and the thai (1940, 1941 and 1945). Because of lack of support from the US and UK, a kind of compromise was found with Japan : french authority is maintained and Japanese forces are allowed to use some airfields and port. This was valid until march 1945 when some japanese divisions overrunned the remaining french forces.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Skyland

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If there ever is a WiTP2, the Axis side needs to have defined nationalities for the puppets (Thailand, Vichy, Manchuko, etc) and even Germany (who operated a handful of subs and surface raiders in the Indian Ocean).

Well, Vichy was not an axis puppet. Notably, Indochina army faced several time the japanese and the thai (1940, 1941 and 1945). Because of lack of support from the US and UK, a kind of compromise was found with Japan : french authority is maintained and Japanese forces are allowed to use some airfields and port. This was valid until march 1945 when some japanese divisions overrunned the remaining french forces.

Vichy more or less was a puppet in that they all buy had to do what the Germans told them to do.

So they were and they weren't. Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch), and the French Resistance and Free French did fight bravely for the Allies.

Indochina was unique in that they had no hope of any outside support, so it was for the best to remain as neutral as possible.

[m10bob]

Later in the war the French also flew Grumman Hellcats and Martin Marauders.(I don't think they had Corsairs till '46?)

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch)...

Not just Torch. There was Dakar, and Syria. I am no expert, but I think that what resistance Vichy forces gave depended a lot on the inclinations of the local commander(s).

Andrew

PS: Edit - I forgot - Madagascar also...

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch)...

Not just Torch. There was Dakar, and Syria. I am no expert, but I think that what resistance Vichy forces gave depended a lot on the inclinations of the local commander(s).

Andrew

PS: Edit - I forgot - Madagascar also...

Good point Andrew. In New Caledonia, for example, the citizens chose to support the Free French as opposed to the Vichy and the colony very peacefully joined the Free French cause and did not resist the Allies at all. The same for French Polynesia (the Marquesas).

[JWE]

I think - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that John's paradigm is that there is no Vichy and no FFL, just France (that displaced to North Africa or the UK, if I recall correctly). As such, we're talking about the colonial vestiges of a still relatively unified national entity, in much the same way as we look at the Dutch in the DEI after the fall of the Netherlands.

IRL, or IRL "what if's " are fun, but John has a scenario paradigm that we should keep in mind. [;)]

[wdolson]

Different colonies decided to join different sides at different times.  A lot had to do with their location.  The French islands in the Pacific were wise to join the Free French because they were a lot closer to several Allied countries than they were to any Axis countries.  Indochina had to play ball with the Japanese because they were deep behind enemy lines from virtually the start of the war.  The only Allied power nearby was China and it was weak.

Bill

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: JWE

I think - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that John's paradigm is that there is no Vichy and no FFL, just France (that displaced to North Africa or the UK, if I recall correctly). As such, we're talking about the colonial vestiges of a still relatively unified national entity, in much the same way as we look at the Dutch in the DEI after the fall of the Netherlands.

IRL, or IRL "what if's " are fun, but John has a scenario paradigm that we should keep in mind. [;)]

Thanks John! FatR and I appreciate it.

Looks like we've got the French and Thai pretty well all sowed up. Glad to get some of this settled and truly appreciate the support, help, and ideas thrown out here. Thanks, again, to Skyland and the work he has given us.

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch)...

Not just Torch. There was Dakar, and Syria. I am no expert, but I think that what resistance Vichy forces gave depended a lot on the inclinations of the local commander(s).

Andrew

PS: Edit - I forgot - Madagascar also...

Vichy was a "neutral" state recognized by every countries except UK. They did not received direct order from the german. Every german request was discussed and negociated with compensation. It was very complex situation.
At 1st, the german did not allow Vichy to have more than symbolic military forces. It was only after Mers el Kebir attack (part of Catapult) that a force was reconstituted.

The Vichy forces were ordered to resist any aggression by the gov because if not the german will have a pretext to invade the free zone.

Note that the resistance was strong against the UK because the MeK attack was considered as a UK trahison by the french military. The resistance was more "symbolic" during Torch because it was the US (that's why UK planes were wearing US marking).

It is interesting discussion but OT so i will stop here, sorry John ! [:)]

[John 3rd]

I am got misunderstood. The conversation is pretty interesting. My thoughts were simply that we've gotten the information needed for the Mod and now this is chat is happening. One of the things I enjoy about Threads is how they can take off in a differing conversation and be fascinating to read and/or participate in.

My concurance with John was that his view of what we're accepting (ie No VICHY) is correct for this scenario.