A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

[BletchleyGeek]

Thank you for the quality posts either on-topic or off-topic, but let me focus on what Klydon wrote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
The other thing I have seen is the Russians sit a bit too calmly on the total defensive and simply react to what the Germans are doing (usually in the south). This sort of plays into the German hands as he wants the front quite in many spots while he concentrates his best units and tries to wipe out a large chunk of your army. To me, I would consider having a shock army (or two) in reserve for offensive operations. The idea is once the German becomes committed in the south, you start hammering the line someplace else. You simply can't go toe to toe with the best of the German army in the first part of 1942, so don't even try it. Instead, try to limit the damage, but don't be afraid to give ground. In 1942, he has to beat your army and get a lot of counters gone.

That's one of the keys, indeed. There are indeed places where the Red Army can strike with strength and possibly catch the Wehrmacht unprepared (Q-Ball, just pretend you're not reading this ). This will depend on how the game has played out so far. But the truth is that if the German decides to play "safe" and have substantial motorized reserves along the front, his southern push (if that's his plan, of course) will probably turn out to be quite anemic.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

(Q-Ball, just pretend you're not reading this ).

I Know Nozink!

Seriously, that is good advice though for Soviet players. Don't let the Germans strip the whole front.

[Flaviusx]

Seeing how the quiet sectors of the front will be up north in all likelihood, I'm kind of doubting the effectiveness of trying to smack well dug in German infantry in the Valdai hills or the swamps and forests east of Leningrad. These are precisely the areas where I myself am stripping things down to bone and want to keep my commitment to the bare minimum. It's also the only place on the map the Soviet can safely use static mode.

I prefer to throw in reserves where the panzers are and hit them.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Seeing how the quiet sectors of the front will be up north in all likelihood, I'm kind of doubting the effectiveness of trying to smack well dug in German infantry in the Valdai hills or the swamps and forests east of Leningrad. These are precisely the areas where I myself am stripping things down to bone and want to keep my commitment to the bare minimum. It's also the only place on the map the Soviet can safely use static mode.

I prefer to throw in reserves where the panzers are and hit them.

I think that's a bit too one-dimensional and actually plays on German hands. Yes, striking on the spearheads is something one needs to do. But, realistically, there's no way to defeat them, say, in a couple "decisive" turns. Expecting to fight - and win - an epic meeting engagement of armored forces on the steppes is wishful thinking.

The point about the north is true, launching an offensive into the Karelian Isthmus or the Valdai Hills is nuts. South of the Valdai hills, it's a different story.

EDIT: Edited for clarity

[Klydon]

While there may be "nothing" up north in terms of a geographical objective for the Red Army, that is not the point. The point is to bleed the German army more than he expects and cause him as many headaches away from his main armored effort. It doesn't take a huge force of Russians to do this (army or two tops) and you will have plenty to go at it down south. The other point is the Germans are likely not to be well dug in anyplace for the most part because of the new rules and even if they are, it will likely be 1 line worth of forts that is worth a lick. Crack that and the Germans either start pulling back or have to respond. Either way is a win for the Russians.

[ComradeP]

The Germans will fairly quickly dig to level 3 forts, and even level 2 forts are sufficient up there due to the difficult terrain. 6 ~3 CV Rifle divisions=~18 CV. A ~5 CV German infantry division in a level 3 fort (with terrain bonus)=~20 CV, in a level 4 fort (with terrain bonus)=~25 CV.

You won't get anywhere without Rifle corps and artillery divisions.

[Flaviusx]

It's not about winning a meeting engagement. It's about grinding the panzers and taking the edge of them. Lowering their CVs and chewing up their ammo. They are also far more vulnerable to attacks than dug in landsers. Panzers are the easy targets. (Well, except for any Axis minor you're lucky to run into.)

[Q-Ball]

If you are thinking long-term (like into 1944), attacking the Finns is a good idea. They get almost no replacements, and can't go into STATIC mode, meaning they also suffer more attrition.

I had a successful northern offensive against Tarhunnas; the main point was to force him to commit several German divisions, which he did, including Panzers.

I see alot of players keep the Finnish Army on the line past Blizzard, which is a mistake IMO. You need to pull them off to rebuild morale and keep their losses low. You can always use them for quick counterattacks up there. (Now I'm giving things away to B-G: This is why I am replacing most of the Finnish army in the line this spring. Now you know!)

If nothing else, I think you have to convince the German player there COULD be an attack anywhere, so they don't completely strip large sections of the front to reinforce the South (which seems like is where everyone's 1942 offensive is).

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The Germans will fairly quickly dig to level 3 forts, and even level 2 forts are sufficient up there due to the difficult terrain. 6 ~3 CV Rifle divisions=~18 CV. A ~5 CV German infantry division in a level 3 fort (with terrain bonus)=~20 CV, in a level 4 fort (with terrain bonus)=~25 CV.

You won't get anywhere without Rifle corps and artillery divisions.

Fort levels melt quickly when confronted with masses of Sapper Regiments. So Corps are needed, Arty divisions should give the extra oomph.

And again, just looking the terrain between Rzhev and Orel is much easier than north of Rzhev.

[Q-Ball]

Rhzev to Orel.....got it![:D]

I do agree that the Valdai Hills are probably not a good target. If the Germans blow it off too much I can see the Russians making some hay, but it doesn't take much to defend that position, and it's not worth taking in particular.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Rhzev to Orel.....got it![:D]

ComradeP twisted my arm [:(]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I do agree that the Valdai Hills are probably not a good target. If the Germans blow it off too much I can see the Russians making some hay, but it doesn't take much to defend that position, and it's not worth taking in particular.

Well, I can always try to strike across Luchessa river with one of my Mech Corps and then you bring GrossDeutschland to play. That was a very interesting battle, by the way, covered by TCS GD'42.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I see alot of players keep the Finnish Army on the line past Blizzard, which is a mistake IMO. You need to pull them off to rebuild morale and keep their losses low. You can always use them for quick counterattacks up there. (Now I'm giving things away to B-G: This is why I am replacing most of the Finnish army in the line this spring. Now you know!)

I guessed that the thing with setting up a "diversion" can work both ways [:)]

[ComradeP]

Fort levels melt quickly when confronted with masses of Sapper Regiments. So Corps are needed, Arty divisions should give the extra oomph.

Even though you could also assign the sapper regiments to army HQ's, the penalty for the number of units involved might outweigh their benefit.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
The idea is once the German becomes committed in the south, you start hammering the line someplace else. You simply can't go toe to toe with the best of the German army in the first part of 1942, so don't even try it. Instead, try to limit the damage, but don't be afraid to give ground. In 1942, he has to beat your army and get a lot of counters gone. On the other hand, the German army breaks when he gets knocked down to a certain amount of infantry. You need to figure out how to cause more losses to his infantry. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, but stretch his line, beat on his infantry and make him commit more resources to defending where you are attacking. Make him be out of static so his attrition will be higher. If he shows up to counter what you are doing in sufficient force, fade away. You can't risk your good units yet because you simply don't have enough of them. Consider rotating units depending on what happens so you can increase your pool of good units.

Good point, and this is exactly what the Russians did historically in 1942 re: Lenningrad and the Rzhev Salient battles. The Rzhev Salient especially goes mostly unnoticed by history books (overshadowed by Fall Blau), but the Russians launched multiple massive attacks which resulted in precisely what you describe above.

[Flaviusx]

I'm not particularly encouraged by the Leningrad or Rhzev salient historical examples, myself. Although I suppose the Leningrad offensives at least had the effect of locking down 11. Army which was supposed to be attacking Leningrad proper and instead got chewed up stopping the Sovs.

The Rhzev salient attacks imo didn't achieve a damned thing and resulted in huge losses. You could argue it kept German formations in the area that otherwise might have been sent south, but I don't think the Wehrmacht had the logistical chops to send more stuff to the south and keep it supplied. It could barely manage to do the job with what they had committed to Fall Blau as things stood.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm not particularly encouraged by the Leningrad or Rhzev salient historical examples, myself. Although I suppose the Leningrad offensives at least had the effect of locking down 11. Army which was supposed to be attacking Leningrad proper and instead got chewed up stopping the Sovs.

The Rhzev salient attacks imo didn't achieve a damned thing and resulted in huge losses. You could argue it kept German formations in the area that otherwise might have been sent south, but I don't think the Wehrmacht had the logistical chops to send more stuff to the south and keep it supplied. It could barely manage to do the job with what they had committed to Fall Blau as things stood.

Point taken. However, I think perhaps the point moreso of the above operations is to draw attention away from the main area of operations. At the very least to plant a seed of doubt in the Germans' mind.

If the Germans were as stetched by Fall Blau as you say, then even a small drawing away of resources will put them over the limit.

[Klydon]

I don't disagree with you Flav from a historical standpoint of view, but in game terms, the Germans are not hampered by logistic limitations like that in the south and are free to put as many formations down there as they wish.

The point I am trying to make is the Russian players are having a tendency to be very passive in 1942 across the entire front for the most part and they don't need to be. They should look for opportunities elsewhere to punish a German stripping their front to go to work in the south while building up a cadre of experienced forces, etc for later on and also trying to inflict as many casualties on the German infantry as possible. If the Russians have to show up with a pile of crap aircraft to help get the push going, then so be it. If the Russians start coming out with some rifle corps and artillery units, would you prefer to use the few you have in the south where they face the best of the German army or use them in a place where you can hope to inflict some damage and where you are relatively safe from encirclement?

The game is such the panzers will wear themselves out with all the movement and from the occasional "love tap" from the Russians. It is not like the Russians must intentionally attack them all the time to wear them out and it can be very dangerous to do so. The German panzer arm, while very dangerous, does not dictate the status of the German army in Russian; it is all about what shape the German infantry is in.

[wadortch]

What is great about this discussion is it looks like the proper goal of creating a lot of tension in 1942 has been achieved. Time to play out a bunch of games and see how the balance lands!

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Starting with 1.05.xx GC from the beginning in a competitive PBEM setting, I'm finding the Germans can now launch 1941-style blitzkriegs and encirclements in the summer of 1942.

Historically German weren’t able to build up big pockets after spring of 1942 because Soviet made doctrine chance that allowed tactical retreats and pull backs of their defense lines. Soviet were much more flexible in this sense than German who lost 6th army in Stalingrad, 60 000 men in Crimea and whole Army Group North because of no pull back fight to last men orders. German Generals were constantly dismissed just suggesting pulling back.

If this game would be historical every time German moves any unit away from Soviets units and toward Berlin General leading that army or corps lose one political point up to the point where General is dismissed.

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

hi guys, i've experienced the amazing German flexibility while playing a 1942-1945 PBEM game as the Germans. It seems realistic and fair.

I spent most of 1942 creating pockets and bagging a few million Russians, and am doing the same in 1943. I'm not sure if the advantage is the changed rules, but my Panzers do seem to be able to rail and move quite far, switching from sector to sector quite easily. However, it seems fair to me that the German player has this added flexibility. I avoided a Stalingrad, kept my casualties low and my Panzer divisions are mostly 99% TOE-- so it makes sense that I actually can play the Manstein mobile defence/offence game. It seems unrealistic to take Moscow, Leningrad or the south at this point so I'm better off running my panzers around the same sectors. My opponent has also kept too many troops close to the front, and not followed what Jakerson said about a deeper defence in depth.

But if the German player has kept the Wehrmacht intact and in great fighting shape, why can't 1942-1945 offensives be powerful?