Killing off a surrounded but superior Army... (no tk208 plz)

[aphrochine]

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So it's late 1943 in my PBEM game against tk208. He pushed hard from Yenan against Sian after my expedition overextended, was defeated and was able to meet with reinforcements to hold the line NE of Sian



Note, this pic is a bit old. I now own all 6 hexsides.

He did not cover his flanks and allowed me to completely envelop his 1st IJN Army (roughly 2400 AV). I'm holding the hex with 1900 AV and have another 2000 AV scattered around the hex to defend against the coming relief forces (including a Guards Tank Division, also not included in this pic).

I have only deliberate attacked once (with far more AV), and have surrounded the army now for 5-6 weeks with routine bombardment. This is quickly draining my northern supplies. With the reinforcement coming, I cannot bring in much more to attack down the Hex. He appears to be getting some supply. LRCAP (1 USAAF FG operating out of Sian) has not indicated any transport interception.


Thoughts on my next steps?? Will the army ever simply starve to death??

[zuluhour]

2 Cent

The true nature of his supplies FOW however if he is close to exausted his units will probably have something like 2% supply and will remain so for..... So no surrender. However his multiplier against AV will be severly reduced.

Unit Supply

a unit with 100% supply has its unadjusted assault value multiplied by 1
a unit with 75% supply is multiplied by 0.8
a unit with 50% supply is multiplied by 0.6
a unit with 25% supply is multiplied by 0.4
a unit with zero supply is multiplied by 0.25


please note: this information (multiplers) is from Alfred, the effect of being completly out of supply and being able to hold for an extended period of time is my own assement based on having Chinese units out of supply for over a year. Two hexes from Changsha, if my opponent only knew![:D]

[crsutton]

Just start grinding. You might lose more than him at first but he will eventually break. You have crappy artillery but bombardment will force him to use supply but at a slower rate. Note that he does have one hexside controlled so a trickle of supply might reach him through there, but not enough.

[jmalter]

if you've got all 6 hexsides, you're in the driver's seat - but your own supply is also v. limited.

don't attack w/ limited supply! you might have to curtail all other China ops (building, movement, replacement, air) to allow supply to accrue to your forces NE of Sian. if you're bombing him heavily from Sian, you're using supply that might've oozed out to your field forces.

look at all of China, you prob'ly only have enough supply to do 1-1/2 of the 6 things you'd like to do. go thru the whole continent & decide on draconian priortization measures.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

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So it's late 1943 in my PBEM game against tk208. He pushed hard from Yenan against Sian after my expedition overextended, was defeated and was able to meet with reinforcements to hold the line NE of Sian



Note, this pic is a bit old. I now own all 6 hexsides.

He did not cover his flanks and allowed me to completely envelop his 1st IJN Army (roughly 2400 AV). I'm holding the hex with 1900 AV and have another 2000 AV scattered around the hex to defend against the coming relief forces (including a Guards Tank Division, also not included in this pic).

I have only deliberate attacked once (with far more AV), and have surrounded the army now for 5-6 weeks with routine bombardment. This is quickly draining my northern supplies. With the reinforcement coming, I cannot bring in much more to attack down the Hex. He appears to be getting some supply. LRCAP (1 USAAF FG operating out of Sian) has not indicated any transport interception.


Thoughts on my next steps?? Will the army ever simply starve to death??

it´s not fully cut off, supply probably still flow into the hex through the North Western hex side, where he could also just walk out if he wanted to. As he doesn't seem to be wanting this, I guess he is fully supplied.

[aphrochine]

I do own all hexsides (as mentioned, the pic is a bit dated).

My forces have been shelling him daily for a while, trying to help him use up his supply in the counter shelling. Only 4 of my units are marginally under supplied, ~2-3% low. So I'll stop my shelling and fill up my supply levels. Meanwhile, the hex is in range of RAF 4Es that I can station at Ledo. The hex is currently 1950 to 2390 in AV, and I have another 750 AV coming in.

Given there is such a high chance of him being very low on supply, should I try to peel off troops and acheive a 2-1 ratio before I attack?? Or should I just go with soon to be 2600 and let the supply modifiers carry me through??

Note: I could probably get up to 4000 AV in the hex, but with the Guards Tank Division and other LCUs marching to break through to the IJA 1st Army...I need substantial force to block to the relief attempt.

[BBfanboy]

Low supply may affect combat immediately but it takes much longer to actually disable and then destroy squads. I wanted to see what happened with low supply so in my sandbox game [playing both sides] I sent some of the Japanese and Thai units into the mountains and jungles between N Thailand and W China [Paoshan, Tsuyung]. I marched them back and forth, with no combat and little air attack on them. It took a couple of months to use up supply in most units [they were likely getting tiny amounts daily].
The kicker is that it took 2-3 months more with NO SUPPLY for the units to start getting disablements over 50%, and only at that level did losses due to starvation/disease occur. Degradation happened faster in jungle terrain than in mountain - some units recovered disabled squads when they passed from jungle to mountain hexes, even though supply was at zero for months [trickle of supply used daily?]. I also noted that extremely experienced units like the Imperial Guard and the Thai units fared better than less experienced units - jungle training and knowing how to live off the land perhaps?

Conclusion: - unless there is active combat of some kind to inflict disablements and use supply, it takes a looooong time to starve them out. [:(]
Your encirclement will help deny him the trickle of supply that helped my IJA sandbox units. Good luck [and oriental patience]!

[artuitus_slith]

try staggered attacks. use 1/4-1/3 of your units in each attack, placing them in reserve after each attack. This should help wear down his units, and allow yours a few days to recover between attacks. Of course if your attacks are too costly you may have to give it up.

[GreyJoy]

Be patient. It takes several months before a sorrounded unit goes out of supply. Bombard them for a couple of months and then try a deliberate attack. You will lose, but you'll recover, they won't. Bombard them for few more months and repeat the process back again

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Be patient. It takes several months before a sorrounded unit goes out of supply. Bombard them for a couple of months and then try a deliberate attack. You will lose, but you'll recover, they won't. Bombard them for few more months and repeat the process back again

it doesn't take months until a ground unit runs out of supply if it is cut off

[aphrochine]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Be patient. It takes several months before a sorrounded unit goes out of supply. Bombard them for a couple of months and then try a deliberate attack. You will lose, but you'll recover, they won't. Bombard them for few more months and repeat the process back again

it doesn't take months until a ground unit runs out of supply if it is cut off

I certainly hope not.

I'll try to get an updated pic posted this evening.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Be patient. It takes several months before a sorrounded unit goes out of supply. Bombard them for a couple of months and then try a deliberate attack. You will lose, but you'll recover, they won't. Bombard them for few more months and repeat the process back again

it doesn't take months until a ground unit runs out of supply if it is cut off

CT, the lengthy time I cited was sans combat - just keeping the unit out of touch with roads or bases. I know they will run out much quicker if you attack or bombard them, but aphrochine is concerned about the supply available to initiate an attack on his side. Does your experience with this include starving surrounded enemies without attacking?
I am interested because the units I monitored were not completely cut off and may have receiived a trickle of supply [used up each day so I could not see how much, if any].

[aphrochine]

I launched my first Deliberate attack. I'm not at my home computer, so I'll post the results with an updated screen. Not as good as I had hoped. I guess now back to bombardment and watch to see if the IJA's AV recovers.

[aphrochine]

Here is an updated screen.





Well, that was a bit rough...



Ground combat at 85,39 (near Sian)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 71943 troops, 505 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2754

Defending force 83266 troops, 825 guns, 456 vehicles, Assault Value = 2389

Allied adjusted assault: 756

Japanese adjusted defense: 2285

Allied assault odds: 1 to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1132 casualties reported
Squads: 17 destroyed, 107 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 59 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Vehicles lost 31 (1 destroyed, 30 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
8963 casualties reported
Squads: 43 destroyed, 1024 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 122 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 54 disabled
Guns lost 31 (4 destroyed, 27 disabled)


Assaulting units:
29th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
1st New Chinese Corps
91st Chinese Corps
35th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
8th Prov Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
1st Construction Regiment
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment

Defending units:
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
60th Infantry Brigade
36th Division
24th Division
15th Division
116th Division
27th Division
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade
110th Division
4th NCPC Infantry Brigade
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Army
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
56th JAAF AF Bn

[BBfanboy]

He did get a "-" for supply, so his troop recovery will be slow - but he clearly has not run out of ammo. I don't see a fort value either so he is having trouble building them. However he needs to eat some of his artillery and bullets before you attack again, so I would just bombard for a while. Even if his counterbombardment causes you more casualties, you are causing him to use up supply and his AV will get adjusted downward next assault.

[wadail]

Also, keep a close eye on your own level of disruption and don't attack him (other than bombardment) when your units are seriously disrupted. That's a heck of an army to have pinned down and you don't want to let him break out. Remember the four F's of infantry combat:

Find 'em
Fix 'em
Fight 'em
Finish 'em

You have 3 of the 4 accomplished here.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

I launched my first Deliberate attack. I'm not at my home computer, so I'll post the results with an updated screen. Not as good as I had hoped. I guess now back to bombardment and watch to see if the IJA's AV recovers.

Completely cut off army will not recover (well, they can got some supply by air drop), as recovery is either repair of devices, or lowering disruption/fatigue. To make sure, they used all the supply you could try another attack. The main trouble with casualities is your worse firepower (he has lots of artillery, and some AFVs).

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Be patient. It takes several months before a sorrounded unit goes out of supply. Bombard them for a couple of months and then try a deliberate attack. You will lose, but you'll recover, they won't. Bombard them for few more months and repeat the process back again

it doesn't take months until a ground unit runs out of supply if it is cut off

CT, the lengthy time I cited was sans combat - just keeping the unit out of touch with roads or bases. I know they will run out much quicker if you attack or bombard them, but aphrochine is concerned about the supply available to initiate an attack on his side. Does your experience with this include starving surrounded enemies without attacking?
I am interested because the units I monitored were not completely cut off and may have receiived a trickle of supply [used up each day so I could not see how much, if any].

If there is supply path, units will receive full supply (they can get less, if there is not enough in nearby bases). The only problem is length of such path. The longer it is, the rarer supply is delivered (down to once per week).
Without supply - fatigue increases, and once it is high enough devices begin to disable.

[aphrochine]

So an update...

Here is the current layout.



There have been no attacks since the last one from either side. I have about 1400 AV on the road and 1100 directly east of the encirclement. It appears that there is major movement from the Tank colum to the east hex, so I'm redeploying back and gonna aim to have most of the AV there when the Tank Division hits. I'm bringing up another 300 AV from the south of Sian and I have 2 AT Regiments coming in to reinforce my roughly 40+ 37mm guns I have strune across the front.

[wadail]

I have sort of the same situation with a large Japanese army I have surrounded in Canton, but can not muster more than 1-1. I figure eventually I will attrition the forces enough that the pocket collapses (The look out Hong Kong!) but the lack of Chinese combat engineers to reduce fortifications is making this take much longer than it should.

I watch disruption and % TOE, and when the infantry moves up a little I send another human wave against the fortification. On turns the infantry is resting I bombard the Japanese forces with artillery units.

[aphrochine]

Well, this is my 4th deliberate attack. The encirclement was complete and the stack cut off sometime around September (I forget exact date).

It's now Jan 7th, and I'm abandoning the effort to kill off the stack. The force keeps recovering it's disables and with a 3300 adjusted AV, I dont think the supply is anywhere near run out. It's getting supply somehow, despite owning all hexes adjacent with exception to one which is his break out attempt. Even that hex, I own 5/6 hexsides.



Ground combat at 85,39 (near Sian)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 79258 troops, 558 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2251

Defending force 79581 troops, 800 guns, 441 vehicles, Assault Value = 2282

Allied adjusted assault: 434

Japanese adjusted defense: 3641

Allied assault odds: 1 to 8

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2379 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 179 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 66 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Guns lost 28 (1 destroyed, 27 disabled)
Vehicles lost 12 (2 destroyed, 10 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
6743 casualties reported
Squads: 127 destroyed, 720 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 84 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 56 disabled
Guns lost 62 (3 destroyed, 59 disabled)


Assaulting units:
13th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
1st New Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
91st Chinese Corps
30th Chinese Corps
35th Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
3rd Construction Regiment
49th AA Regiment

Defending units:
116th Division
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
60th Infantry Brigade
15th Division
36th Division
110th Division
24th Division
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade
27th Division
4th NCPC Infantry Brigade
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Army
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
56th JAAF AF Bn

[&:]

I have no more force to bring in. If the lack of supply wasnt enough, it's not in the cards.