Limit Theory

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JoshParnell
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by JoshParnell »

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
A* has been around for ages, yes - I'm quite well aware of that. There are as many variations of it as there are implementations, though - since that largely depends on how you do your map.

My observation was based on two statements:
"obstacle avoidance is one of those nastier low-level implementation details that can be tricky"
"space sim AI is a good bit simpler, and affords the programmer more time to worry about the "cool/fun" part of AI (high-level) and worry less about"

You seem to think that pathfinding is a big part of your game's AI - where it isn't. Look at any flight combat simulator - once the physics model is done to simulate their flying - the nasty bit of how they fly comes into question. Bank left, right, pull an Immelmann? In your case, will they play dodge-em around asteroids or try to hit your flanks while you focus on one of them? What goods the NPC traders are carrying and to where - That's where your "real" AI starts to come in.

Sorry, I never intended to suggest that pathfinding is a big part of my game's AI...and just so we're clear, here's my statement: pathfinding and obstacle avoidance are trivial in this game. All I said is that it frees up more time to work on the high-level AI.

I understand the "how to fly" might seem like a difficult problem if you haven't implemented it. The truth, however, is that it's fantastically simple. The underlying methodology is that, at all times, you have several AI "substrategies" that get to submit votes on a heading. The votes are aggregated as a weighted average, and the current heading is exponentially smoothed with the new heading, as determined by this aggregation. Now, to determine heading, we have several different types of behaviors. Dodging around obstacles, as you mentioned, is implemented by performing a proximity query on the ship, then selecting an obstacle that is relatively close, choosing a random point on the surface of it's world-space AABB, then voting for a heading in the direction of that point. This provides compelling "dodge-em" mechanics. Trying to hit your flanks, of course, is completely trivial - one sets the heading to point towards the target ship. Or, better yet, a random point on the surface of the target ship's world-space AABB, which provides interesting variation when the target is a large ship. Now, there are also concurrent substrategies submitting votes to achieve obstacle avoidance, or for maintaining a formation, or whatever other behavior you'd like. In either case, I'd be happy to explain to you exactly how the heading is computed if you think it's difficult.

As for trading. Here's a simple model: suppose the NPC has a set of known locations. Randomly select some subset of these locations (for variability). Choose some subset of trade goods (perhaps the NPC deals in a certain type of good; it's trivial to generate such a set). Compute the good with the largest price differential among the locations, or, perhaps, the largest price differential per unit volume (again, it's obviously simple, just an outer loop over goods and an inner loop over locations). Now, invoke a "trade" strategy, where the good is the chosen good with maximal price differential, the "source" is the location with the lowest price, and the destination is the planet with the highest price. Other AI strategies, e.g. "TravelTo" will perform the rest of the work. Of course, this is a very simple algorithm, and the algorithms in LT are more complex. Nonetheless, it is a perfectly valid way to determine "what goods the NPC traders and carrying and to where."

Now, I invite you to point out where exactly the complexity lies in either of those tasks.
Burying your resume somewhere on the 20th page of a forum post or some obscure Wordpress blog isn't being honest about things. You don't put it on your Kickstarter page, do you? You don't put it on your ltheory.com page, do you? If I look in the places normal people look, I can't find it. That's worrying.

What? My resume is as plain as day on the website that is my namesake, which is indeed linked under my Kickstarter page under my profile...if you find it, I guess you'll see that I have little to hide. Many people have already commented on the resume..?
My experience? When I come asking for $50k in donations, I'll happily release my details. The fact is that I'm not and you are. But you've got some $89k in pledges already. More than enough.

Ah, of course. I guess that answer doesn't surprise anyone ;)
But wait - Elite: Dangerous is a project proposed by one of the very same people who made the original Elite - he invented the whole genre. Yet he - a seasoned professional who's actually done it - has budgeted $1.25 million. You claim to be able to do largely the same thing for... 4% (1/25) of the budget? And you seriously expect people to trust you at your word? If I propose to build someone a car that'll go like a Ferrari for 4% of the cost of a real Ferrari - I'd expect to be laughed at and openly mocked.

No, I don't claim to be able to do "largely the same thing." There are some immense difference between E:D and LT. For example, all content in LT is procedural. This slashes the development cost by a good bit already, as I have no need for artists. But, most importantly, LT is not multiplayer. Another huge slash in dev cost. Yes, you're right, I guess I would laugh if you claimed to be able to make a Ferrari for 4% the cost. Luckily, I'm not offering to do so. Hopefully you'll refrain from such straw-man comparisons in the future.
Oh, that's precious. Coming from someone who has zero professional experience. You made my day. Biggest giggle all day. Abandon the game and go into comedy - it's clearly your calling.

Kayoz, the more you protract this argument, the more it becomes clear to the readers of this thread that you have not done your homework, nor are you interested in a real debate. At every opportunity, you avoid the real meat of the argument and instead rely on undermining my "experience" or the ever-winning sarcasm. Given that your attitude suggests immense practical knowledge of game development, I think both me and the other readers would appreciate it if you would explain exactly why I can't make LT for $50K, or at least why AI is so difficult. Again, I would like to hear something that indicates that you actually know what it takes to implement one of the concepts that you've discussed, but, thus far, I have only heard imaginary complexities.
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Kayoz
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Now, I invite you to point out where exactly the complexity lies in either of those tasks.

White noise. Clouds of fog.

If it were really so simple, every programmer would code the game of his dreams in his spare time. If you think it's so easy, then the best of luck. Better programmers than you have tried to write their own games in their spare time, and burned out or gave up. Generally, ya it looks easy peasy to code. All straightforward and simple. If only it were that way, gamers would be drowning in a sea of choices and innovation.

I'm not going to try to tell you where all the game development pitfalls are - I can't, as each journey down that path is unique. You ask the impossible. That you think it's all clear sailing and your "procedural sails" will blow you to the other side of this sea - well, that says it all, doesn't it? Maybe you're the new Columbus to discover the "procedural land of milk and honey". Some people seem to believe your hype on Kickstarter. I'll voice my skepticism.
ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
What? My resume is as plain as day on the website that is my namesake, which is indeed linked under my Kickstarter page under my profile...if you find it, I guess you'll see that I have little to hide. Many people have already commented on the resume..?

You hide it on a site that can't be accessed and times out for every access - and this proves what?

Most people won't dig around for that sort of information. Most people won't read the fine print when they sign a contract. Shockingly enough, there are groups of people all too eager to exploit the general unwillingness or inability of people to pick through contracts.

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
My experience? When I come asking for $50k in donations, I'll happily release my details. The fact is that I'm not and you are. But you've got some $89k in pledges already. More than enough.

Ah, of course. I guess that answer doesn't surprise anyone ;)

D'uh. No fecal matter, Sherlock. I like my privacy.

I have a professional reputation to uphold, unlike you.
ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
No, I don't claim to be able to do "largely the same thing." There are some immense difference between E:D and LT. For example, all content in LT is procedural.

"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

You spout "procedural" like it's the panacea for all game development woes. It has it's place - the foliage in Skyrim or the planet images in any space game. Yet somehow you're going to expand this to cover -everything- in the game. Ships, bases, opponents, trade, as only teasers.

It it were so easy to do, someone would have done it. Braben would use it if it would cut his costs by a factor of 25. Bethseda would use it to slash their artistic budget to ribbons. Heck, the applications to other industries only cascade from there. Quite oversight on their part!

And yet you - a 20 year old with zero experience - proposes that he's out-thought all those minds working at those companies? You've seized upon an idea that has evaded armies of programmers?

If that's so, then the world is your oyster - you'll revolutionize the computing industry. Or if not, you'll go down as yet another another dreamer (or worse). Apply Occam's Razor to that and maybe you'll see why I'm so skeptical.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Lucian
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Lucian »

Kayoz, the more you protract this argument, the more it becomes clear to the readers of this thread that you have not done your homework, nor are you interested in a real debate.

Never has a truer word been spoken, seems to me that Kayoz is simply arguing for the sake of argument. But sadly his entire argument seems to consist of "you cant do it cause its too hard" without offering a shred of evidence why not.
There are some immense difference between E:D and LT.

Having just watched youtube videos of both, I think I can safely say that the biggest difference is that LT actually looks a lot BETTER than E:D at this stage.
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Kayoz
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Never has a truer word been spoken, seems to me that Kayoz is simply arguing for the sake of argument. But sadly his entire argument seems to consist of "you cant do it cause its too hard" without offering a shred of evidence why not.

I had my friend's 3-year old ask me why she couldn't fly, as she stood there flapping her arms. I wasn't about to try to explain aerodynamics to her. I think debating design/coding decisions would be similarly fruitful.

As for my argument, you're wrong - the core of my argument isn't "it's too difficult" - so much as "if it were so easy, someone else would have done it by now". His youth, lack of advanced education and absence of experience puts the difficulty bar pretty low. And somehow nobody has found this bar, or if they have - been able to leap over it.

"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out." ~~ Carl Sagan

Says it all, doesn't it?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Lucian
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Lucian »

I had my friend's 3-year old ask me why she couldn't fly, as she stood there flapping her arms. I wasn't about to try to explain aerodynamics to her.

Lol! You probably told her that flying was an immensely complicated task and that she was too young and experienced to ever even attempt it, dashing the poor kid's hopes of ever becoming a pilot.

Good work! Lets hope you don't manage to crush anybody else's dreams with your skepticism.
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Kayoz
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Good work! Lets hope you don't manage to crush anybody else's dreams with your skepticism.

Dream in your own home, in your own privacy. I don't have a problem with that.

Don't come asking for money when you have a dream and not expect people to ask pointed questions.
Don't lay claim to earth-shattering new technology and not expect people to ask "how is it none of the legions of programmers saw this?"
Don't complain when your forum spam isn't greeted with flowers and cheers - but questions and dubiety.

See Carl Sagan's quote above. Or how about...

"You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe." ~~ Carl Sagan

You seem to want to believe in Josh's claims. There's nothing I can do to dissuade you from that.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
JoshParnell
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by JoshParnell »

Kayoz,

I will not waste any more time discussing matters with someone who clearly does not have any desire for a serious conversation, nor any desire to confess to a lack of practical experience. To someone who knows the field intimately, it's more than obvious that you're arguing from naught!

I have coding to get back to ;)

PS ~ Hope you try implementing high-level AI someday. Maybe you'll surprise yourself.
JoshParnell
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by JoshParnell »

Don't lay claim to earth-shattering new technology and not expect people to ask "how is it none of the legions of programmers saw this?"

BTW - This is just an obtuse statement. I showed that technology. I showed the procedural generation of everything, including ships. So really, I'm not sure why you're trying to argue that point. That part has already been proven.
Lucian
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Lucian »

Don't come asking for money when you have a dream and not expect people to ask pointed questions.

Let me get this straight. You ask your pointed questions, and you do so in an unnecessarily rude, aggressive and confrontational manner. Then he answers your questions, trying to be as polite as possible.
I understand the "how to fly" might seem like a difficult problem if you haven't implemented it. The truth, however, is that it's fantastically simple. The underlying methodology is that, at all times, you have several AI "substrategies" that get to submit votes on a heading. The votes are aggregated as a weighted average,......etc

And your response is....
White noise. Clouds of fog.

In addition, he has already demonstrated several aspects of how his procedural generation is working (on youtube) after only a couple of months of development. You have asked for evidence and he has given it to you.

What the hell does Josh have to do to convince you, dump a full working copy of the game in your lap? Would even that do the trick? Somehow I doubt it. Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.
I will not waste any more time discussing matters with someone who clearly does not have any desire for a serious conversation, nor any desire to confess to a lack of practical experience. To someone who knows the field intimately, it's more than obvious that you're arguing from naught!

I think that's a good move, you're clearly just wasting your time with this guy. It does speak volumes that you took the time to answer his belligerent posts though, and in a very calm and mature manner.
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Kayoz
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Lucian

And your response is....
White noise. Clouds of fog.

In addition, he has already demonstrated several aspects of how his procedural generation is working (on youtube) after only a couple of months of development. You have asked for evidence and he has given it to you.

Maybe you're easily impressed. A youtube video doesn't do much for me. Too easy to fake, too easy to edit. Too easy to do a hundred takes for the one that doesn't crash or look like rubbish. If you believe all the promo videos you see, then your life savings should be empty at the end of any E3 conference. But it doesn't take much thinking to come up with a dozen projects who had impressive videos at E3 but never fulfilled their promises.
ORIGINAL: Lucian
What the hell does Josh have to do to convince you, dump a full working copy of the game in your lap? Would even that do the trick? Somehow I doubt it. Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

He has to answer that question, not me. He has nearly $90k on the line and might lose it if Kickstarter questions the veracity of his claims - not me.

He claims to have discovered a method of making a game for 4% the cost of established developers. That counts, in my mind, as a pretty extraordinary claim.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." ~~ Carl Sagan

I see no extraordinary proof. I see no John Carmack here. I see another Jon Romero. Daikatana, anyone?
ORIGINAL: Lucian
I think that's a good move, you're clearly just wasting your time with this guy. It does speak volumes that you took the time to answer his belligerent posts though, and in a very calm and mature manner.

Skepticism isn't a concept that you're familiar with, is it?

Convenient how you showed up on Matrix forums to defend him when he needs it, isn't it?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Lucian
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Lucian »

Convenient how you showed up on Matrix forums to defend him when he needs it, isn't it?

Ha ha, I was expecting something like that. It isn't possible that someone ELSE might disagree with you is it?

Actually your needlessly aggressive personal attack on Josh (which by the way is something that Carl Sagan would never do in a billion, billion years) is getting quite a lot of coverage on several other forums. And they posted links to this one.

I just came over to see what all the fuss was about. Of course I wouldn't expect you to believe that, its all a big conspiracy Kayoz! Who could possibly disagree with your criticism except the designer of the game? lol please save me from trolls!
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Lucian
...is something that Carl Sagan would never do in a billion, billion years)

I think it's quite reasonable to assume he'd want proof of the 2500% efficiency increase he proposes. But to be reasonable - given billions and billions of years, all the atoms in your body randomly deciding to leap 6 feet to the left at the same time, is not unreasonable. You have plenty of time for the most unlikely events to occur. Your statement only shows your ignorance on the subject you claim authority.

Despite his ground-breaking claims, the game development sites have largely ignored Josh. Hrmm... coincidence? They should be abuzz with excitement with such a huge leap in development efficiency. What's that I see on dev forums? Silence.

Post your support on a game development site and see how they react. Go on. You won't accept my comments as coming from authority - go to those who are the black-hats in the game dev field. See how the claims are greeted - when proposed in front of game development pros, not credulous consumers.
ORIGINAL: Lucian
Of course I wouldn't expect you to believe that, its all a big conspiracy Kayoz!

I didn't suggest it was a conspiracy. I only pointed out how convenient it is. I didn't say it was a conspiracy - you did. Running off in tears for the support of one's friends isn't the first time. It happened just the other day, in fact.

We'll see. If he pulls it off, you and your credulous friends can have a laugh at silly me. I do hope you'll drop by again if the reverse is true.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Lucian
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Lucian »

I think it's quite reasonable to assume he'd want proof

Oh I'm sure of it too. But what I'm referring to - as I'm sure you very well know - it that Dr Sagan would NEVER be rude, aggressive or insulting in order to make his point. And I honestly think that you would generate a lot more sympathy for you argument (at least from me) if you had made it in a less confrontational and belligerent manner.

You come across very clearly as someone with an axe to grind and serious inadequacy problems, I'm just saying how I perceive it, and if you check some other forums, you'll see that I'm not the only one to notice.
to defend him when he needs it,

Actually Kayoz, it seems blindingly obvious that in this thread at least, it isn't Josh who needs defending, its you who are on the ropes. Frankly I think he kicked your butt in this "debate", he threw so much evidence at you that you just didnt know what to do. That "white noise, clouds of fog" response of yours was just incredibly lame, I had to read it twice to believe it. Just my opinion of course.
We'll see. If he pulls it off, you and your credulous friends can have a laugh at silly me. I do hope you'll drop by again if the reverse is true.

Agreed, if the reverse is true, you will truly deserve your chance to gloat and I will drop by to take my medicine. Honestly though, I think you're being too paranoid.
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Kayoz
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Actually Kayoz, it seems blindingly obvious that in this thread at least, it isn't Josh who needs defending, its you who are on the ropes. Frankly I think he kicked your butt in this "debate", he threw so much evidence at you that you just didnt know what to do. That "white noise, clouds of fog" response of yours was just incredibly lame, I had to read it twice to believe it. Just my opinion of course.

Interesting. I don't feel on the ropes. I feel like you're avoiding my central questions, and trying to nit-pick over details which I consider distractions.

1. Revolutionary? If Josh's method is so revolutionary, why is it that nobody else is doing it? Or, why are the established studios which have some of the most talented coders around - are only using it in very limited ways (grass, trees, background) and nowhere near the extent that Josh proposes? They've used the method but somehow missed it's potential? How is his technique that gives approximately 2500% efficiency increase - being overlooked by the professional game development community?
2. Complex? Building a game from the ground up is a horribly complex task to be taking on alone - much less by someone who's never done it before. Being able to give abstract explanations about how things are done isn't of any real value. If it were, then Rational wouldn't have much of a market for their products.
3. Experience? Enthusiasm isn't any substitute for experience. Any number of game dev blogs will show you this - time wasted on dead-end concepts, feature creep that turns one's design to overcooked spaghetti, and on and on. Somehow Josh's lack of experience - even on a modest professional scale - isn't troubling to you.
ORIGINAL: Lucian
Honestly though, I think you're being too paranoid.

Paranoid? In this respect, I have none. Nope, no feeling of paranoia. I'm more concerned with being struck by lightning than with your return to gloat. After all, your gloating return would require that the game not be a dismal failure. I'm happy with my chances.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Kayoz
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

FYI -

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/786/entry-2 ... -approach/

Summary:
Procedurally generated content is boring, meaningless. Great for forests, but terrible for human structures - cities and buildings.

Yet somehow Josh has blown past these problems. Interesting. He knows more than the pros.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
jsd22
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by jsd22 »

Kayoz, when I first saw a reference to a student's Kickstarter for funds to write this "amazing" game I was more than sceptical.
As you said, "20 year old kid with no experience, no track record, nothing more than an inflated ego and immense hubris".
And he's asking for money for this dream.

But I read through his pitch, his blog, comments, and answers to questions, and he seems to have ability and understanding
as well as enthusiasm.

Your comments that "He's a punk with no experience and no training" and "He'd get laughed out of an entry level game programming job"
are as absurd as they are insulting.


Do I think that he'll run into unexpected problems, underestimated timescales and missed deadlines, stubborn bugs,
features that don't work as well as planned, etc? Of course, most software projects do.

Is he over optimistic? Probably.

Will his game be as polished or as deep as some professionally produced titles? No.

But I like his ideas, and on the basis of his discussion and examples, I expect something interesting and worth the $15 I committed.
I want to see his game ideas and his procedural universe. Will his design be clever enough to produce sufficient variety and interest?
Perhaps or perhaps not, but he wants to try and the risk to me is small.

Kayoz: "Maybe he really can do it. Maybe the Easter Bunny is real".

Don't dismiss the ability of someone with a vision and determination to succeed with a software project
if they have the basic ability and work hard.

I've made solo software projects myself. I know it can be done.


Really your unrelenting negativity is puzzling.
Certainly, with your greater experience you can warn about possible difficulties, or you can give advice if you have advice to offer,
but your determination to prove that he cannot possibly succeed is unhelpful and trollish.

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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: jsd22
Your comments that "He's a punk with no experience and no training" and "He'd get laughed out of an entry level game programming job"
are as absurd as they are insulting.

Game dev jobs attract the cream of the crop. It's a secret dream harboured by nearly all programmers. Josh - having no experience whatsoever, no completed education - he wouldn't make it very far at all in the selection process. They ask for more than enthusiasm, unfortunately. Perhaps I exaggerate - not laugh. Ignored. Not even considered. You happier with that?

That you don't seem to be aware of this is enlightening.
ORIGINAL: jsd22
Perhaps or perhaps not, but he wants to try and the risk to me is small.

Sure, knock yourself out. You seem happy with the decision you've already made - why are you here on Matrix forums?
ORIGINAL: jsd22
Don't dismiss the ability of someone with a vision and determination to succeed with a software project
if they have the basic ability and work hard.

And he'll succeed or fail regardless of my opinion. Why does my opinion bother you so much?

As to your claim that basic ability and hard work can succeed - I do contend that making a ground-breaking game of epic scope - requires more than "basic" ability. If that were all that's needed, we'd be inundated with solo game projects. Oddly enough... we aren't.
ORIGINAL: jsd22
...your determination to prove that he cannot possibly succeed is unhelpful and trollish.

I'm not "proving" anything, despite your fatuous claim. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. I can't "prove" his project will succeed any more than your positive outlook can "prove" it's success. What is it you're trying to say?

I do take offense at your implication that I said he cannot succeed. I never said that, and you would do well to stop trying to fabricate statements. I quite explicitly said that there is a possibility he will succeed.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
vonRocko
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by vonRocko »

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell


I will not waste any more time discussing matters with someone who clearly does not have any desire for a serious conversation, nor any desire to confess to a lack of practical experience.

Very wise. He is just a negative person, there is no need to waste more time on him.
Good luck kid!
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
Very wise. He is just a negative person, there is no need to waste more time on him.
Good luck kid!

Precious, coming from someone who makes baseless racist accusations. Shoo, vonRocko - your venomous lies and senseless stalking of me isn't accomplishing anything.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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RE: Limit Theory

Post by Mad Igor »

i was sure,that i pressed "New Thread" not "Red Button,Stalin strongly recommend not 2 push it"
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