Micheal T (Ger) vs Kamil (Sov)

[KamilS]

T5 south (German)

Panzers brushed my weak defences aside and locked industry in Dnipropetrovsk.

[randallw]

That was pretty crazy of the computer to place some reinforcements in terrain that was already surrounded.

[carlkay58]

It is because the terrain control does not convert over until AFTER the reinforcement phase. The alternative is to not receive the reinforcements at all - which could save some of the resources that went into the units.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

My current game against Bigbaba is seeing a great fight in the south. I did a big thrust towards Proskurov(sp) but instead of diving south for the huge pocket I surprised him and headed towards Kiev and Overran it on turn 2. I figured he would run at this point but he has stood toe to toe with me. Its the end of turn 7 and I am finally over the damn river in 3 places. Its been a real hoot fighting like this but my concern is its turn 7 and there are only 1.5 million Soviet casualties because I did not pocket the whole lot.

We will see.

I find this anecdote rather ironic because the same kind of scenario that would produce a more "interesting" game (a stand-up fight in the South, or anywhere else) is also the same kind of scenario that'll probably produce a complete blow-out in the later turns (either the Soviets lose from taking historical-level casualties, or the Germans lose from letting the Soviet OOB grow way too big)

[821Bobo]

I am also playing against bigbaba and except the usual Lvov pocket, most of the SW and S front survived. It is because I didnt divert any Pz Korps from 2.Panzergruppe to the south. With only Axis historical forces in AGS sector it is possible for Soviets to fight there.

[hugh04]

And therin lies a lesson. Do not reinforce AGS and go for a half-Lvov opening and encourage the soviet to fight. Less death on turn 1 (marginally) and more the following turns if you can prevent a run away. This game is a great example of massive runaway. The soviet suffers little and sucks in reinforcements till it is ready to fight. The loss of ground has been stupendous, but that is rail road repair buffer. This game will be a test case of can giving up ground save to soviet army for a more advantageous battle or, does it simply mean that when the soviets fight around turns 11 to 17, they have retreated so far that they end up losing too much industry to fight th4e rest of the war.

Turn 5 and the german is near Kursk and Briansk. Amazing. Michael T brings 1 pzg near the soviet and an entire front runs away, I do that and the unit gets counterattacked and retreated.

Vandev

p.s. Bomazz I just got my computer fixed so will finish my turn soon.

[janh]

Vandev, there is no more front to run away. Scroll a few of Kamil's posts up and see the dimension of it. What is left is a skeleton of the Soviets Southern Front's selves.

Only rail repair and fuel issues can stop Michael here for the next few turns. Perhaps Pelton's checkerboard idea isn't bad either, but anything Kamil probably can do has the feel of a last-ditch effort about it. I am curious how much industry he can still save, and whether he can actually stall at least one of Michael's AGs. I fear Michael isn't falling for territory in the South, but will turn North and focus on destroying units, which will be hard to counter since he already outflanked so much territory now.

I am impressed by Michael's new idea, though it ridicules first-turn surprise rules and penalties more so than the Lvov moves do. With this opening, it seems he may have found the Axis golden grail. Hopefully the game will go on into blizzard with the Soviet in reasonable state to continue. It would become boring if the first two turns opening a GC would already decided it one way or another. The game can be so much more fun if it turns into a long desperate forth and back. That makes me wonder where IdahoNYer, Scar and so many others have gotten lost?

[hugh04]

I understand the pressure MT has inflicted on the soviet in the south and how the activation rules have been used to great effect. Without commenting on that, I wonder about the scale of soviet losses on turn 5. Because there has been no other fighting, how do total soviet losses compare to similar games at similar times? My guess is losses are not that bad, though the south has evaporated, there has been no pressure on the center or north. Total losses are likely to be on the light side. The question is how much damage will be inflicted once fighting starts again. Could this summer end with Leningrad and Moscow in soviet hands? We shall see.

vandev

[carlkay58]

The major problem for the Soviet player against this type of offensive is the total lack of units. Without the units, there is no way to form anything anywhere. You just don't have any options as the Soviets. Historically many of the extra armies thrown in to save Leningrad and Moscow came from the south, against this opening the south needs reinforcements from Leningrad and Moscow just to make a few limited speed bumps.

I speak from experience against Sapper whose opening is even stronger and faster than MT's.

[SigUp]

Looking at MT's games I can't help but be speechless. On the one hand, what he does to his opponents is sheer amazing. On the other hand I'm shocked at what the engine allows. In this light I think I rather stay at Single Player. Games against the AI on adjusted settings can be very fun. Right now I'm at turn 11 of a game as the Germans. I started out with the Soviet at 119 (changed to 110 at turn 8, running into hordes of 70 morale Soviet divisions, perhaps due to the quick morale rise of 1.07, is no joke, as is meeting 15 CV Soviet tank divisions...) and my logistics at 60. And at turn 11 I just captured Smolensk the previous turn, am closing on Leningrad, prepare to cross the Dnepr at Kremenchug. My losses are staggering, the last four turns I lost 50.000 men each turn. If this trend continues I'll end up close to 800.000 before blizzard, unless I decline a snow offensive, my tank strength in the Panzer Divisions are down to 1663. But the results are rather historical and it is very enjoyable thinking about possible strategies, like aiming for a Kiev redux or gunning for Moscow (I just encircled something like 20 divisions at Smolenks, but the AI has no limits concerning division numbers, hmm).

[KamilS]

T5 north (Soviet)


I am safe for time being until German infantry arrives.

[KamilS]

T5 centre (Soviet)


Defences is paper thin here, but thanks to rapid advance and presence of my ZOCs along supply lines Michael's panzer should not have enough petrol to harm me.

Soon I will start withdrawal from upper Dnepr towards Rzhev and Vyzama.

[KamilS]

T5 south (Soviet)


Locking of Dnepropetrovsk industry and problems in central sector of the front forced me to apply even more desperate measures than before - transferring third of southern forces to Moscow area and retreat of remnants of southern armies towards Stalino region.

[KamilS]

T6 north (German)


I expect intensive fighting to commence next turn.

[KamilS]

T6 centre (German)


Terrible news. Developments I have not foreseen. Michael's panzers crossed river just west of Kaluga and whole Western front is endangered.

[KamilS]

T6 centre - detailed (German)


It was very unfortunate. Infantry divisions shielding Kaluga and river withdrawn not in desired direction.

I expected 2 divisions defence and thanks to weird withdrawal route only 1 unit was there to make a stand and it turned out to be not enough.

[KamilS]

T6 south (German)


I guess I won't be able to evacuate all Donbas industry.

[KamilS]

T6 north (Soviet)


Time has come to make proper stand here.

[KamilS]

T6 centre (Soviet)


I gambled here.

Blob of infantry divisions (supplemented by tanks) will try to contain breach and in the meantime my remaining units will dig new defensive line. I hope armies defending Tula will survive possible thrust east.

[KamilS]

T6 south (Soviet)


Successful counter-attack enabled partial evacuation of Stalino armament industry, but I think reminding part is doomed.