Guderian walks into a bar in Moscow

[dargoud]

I posted this before the forum crash so here is the next try.

Matrix Games has been the steady supplier for my computer strategy needs for the last 5 years. I own the whole close combat series, FoF, Distant World. Funny enough while most strategy games come and go on my harddrive matrix games hang on. Because they are good and reliable and feel realistic. I play solo on my computer and do my face to face gaming playing flames of war on the tabletop.

With ToF I have issues. Here is the the story:

After heavy combat north of Moscow Guderian and his 1 str. corps get pushed into the northernmost Moscow hex. They don´t get totally surround but are at least 10 hexes from the next unit. They regenerate in Moscow while being under constant air and ground attack from 3 Russian corps.
What happened here? I imagine they walked into a bar that happened to contain 300 Panzer IIIM in the basement plus cloning equipment and enough vodka to drive them. Oh and they lasted through the winter

Same thing happened during another game with a finnish corps that got pushed beyond leningrad.


Other issues:
FoG of War: So the Russian were totally clueless what was happening on the western front ?
German tank hordes: After killing off a lot of german tank unit I am seeing full str. corps again a few turns later
Lend Lease anyone?
Full strength units on the german side in winter 1941
Italian units north of the pripjet marshes.
Unrealistically deep penetrations of german armor 10 to 15 hexes from a railhead
Is Air working ?
Is the navy working? My russian subs never got anything.

Let me finish by saying that I really want to see this game work but I dont have the ability to mod it myself.

Is there hope ?

Thx dargoud

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: dargoud

I posted this before the forum crash so here is the next try.

Matrix Games has been the steady supplier for my computer strategy needs for the last 5 years. I own the whole close combat series, FoF, Distant World. Funny enough while most strategy games come and go on my harddrive matrix games hang on. Because they are good and reliable and feel realistic. I play solo on my computer and do my face to face gaming playing flames of war on the tabletop.

With ToF I have issues. Here is the the story:

After heavy combat north of Moscow Guderian and his 1 str. corps get pushed into the northernmost Moscow hex. They don´t get totally surround but are at least 10 hexes from the next unit. They regenerate in Moscow while being under constant air and ground attack from 3 Russian corps.
What happened here? I imagine they walked into a bar that happened to contain 300 Panzer IIIM in the basement plus cloning equipment and enough vodka to drive them. Oh and they lasted through the winter

Same thing happened during another game with a finnish corps that got pushed beyond leningrad.


Other issues:
FoG of War: So the Russian were totally clueless what was happening on the western front ?
German tank hordes: After killing off a lot of german tank unit I am seeing full str. corps again a few turns later
Lend Lease anyone?
Full strength units on the german side in winter 1941
Italian units north of the pripjet marshes.
Unrealistically deep penetrations of german armor 10 to 15 hexes from a railhead
Is Air working ?
Is the navy working? My russian subs never got anything.

Let me finish by saying that I really want to see this game work but I dont have the ability to mod it myself.

Is there hope ?

Thx dargoud

I assume you are playing Allies against an AI Axis. The AI has advantages which the human player doesn't have, which is a crude way of balancing the AI game. If you capture a city it will provide supply, when in supply units can be reinforced and the AI gets to reinforce to 100%. The human player is restricted in the % of reinforcement that can be applied to units outside home territory (reinforce to 100% in one turn is only available in home territory). Capturing city hexes, or stopping your opponent gaining city hexes becomes a critical part of the game.

Using siege tactics often helps in taking defended cities, totally surround the city (you can use lower strength, or split units - whilst stronger units go on to other tasks), once surrounded a siege routine kicks in and the city should eventually fall, without having to commit too many resources.

Supply issues have been in the game since the start, but it can be adjusted in the scenario data files. Almost all the features in the game can be edited using simple text changes, after opening game files in Windows 'Notepad'. You will see that such issues have been under discussion in the forum forever.

Bad point is that you have to adjust the game, good point is that it is possible to make make changes as the game system is very open and accessible.

There is flexibility in merge and split options, having Division size (good for sieges, or city defence), Corps sized units to concentrate power. Split to cover move area in defence, merge to combine weakened units into one more powerful unit. There is a time and PP cost to unit split which I find unrealistically restrictive, but easy to edit the cost to a lower more reasonable level.

Navy is sort of working, the AI is not good at putting together realistic fleets and convoy routing is a big problem with AI convoys being sent through vulnerable areas. The AI convoys are using pre-programmed routes, you can put out a spread of subs across sea zones, then read the 'Reports/Raiders', see where you are inflicting STP (convoy) losses, then concentrate in those sea zones. The Allies have more convoy routes to hit than the Axis will, so Allied subs will have less to shoot at. There does not seem to much surface action (historically gun actions were rare), working on the settings to adjust that, but air power over sea areas can be decisive.

Air works, if with some peculiarities. You can air attack fighter bases, but you can't attack bombers. It is assumed that an attack on a fighter base will provoke a defence and air battle, the bombers will simply hide. You can only intercept them when they launch an attack and you have to have your interceptors in the right place. There are tools to help, such as fighter air superiority display (hotkey F10), see where you are vulnerable in fighter superiority. Hotkey F9 shows where potential landing beaches are.

If you leave allied nations (nations in your faction) under AI control they are likely to send units anywhere and get in the way, so best to take control of them and integrate them into your strategy. AI allied nations don't necessarily follow any fixed strategy. Bad point, it is not necessarily historical strategy, good point, this game is not so predictable, just like the historical commanders, you don't always know what may happen next.

FoG of War: So the Russian were totally clueless what was happening on the western front ? - not sure what you mean, historically in 1941 the Soviets didn't know where the Germans were and sometimes didn't know where their own units were. The FOW settings can be changed in 'Preferences', depending on whether you want more, or less, of it.

Due to the limitations on AI capability (common to most games), I find it better to play Axis in the early war period, the AI makes a credible Allied opponent (not very bright). Play Allies in the later war scenarios, the AI replicates the inability of the Axis to do much clever stuff.

You will find more oddities coming up as you play on, but most can be adjusted, or moderated with the in-game controls, or small scale editing of files. Result is that you can get a tailor-made game, you don't have to be stick with all the designers decisions.

Sometimes there are inexplicable reductions in national PP levels, these can be triggered by events, but sometimes with no obvious reason. Hotkey F12 gives you access to a screen to adjust PP levels if you think they are wrong, the same screen allows you to move nations in and out of AI control, during a turn. Useful for controlling minor allied nations, you can start their move under human control, make strategic and production choices, move critical units, then select back to AI control to finish that nation's turn.

Read through some of the past threads, much of what you have found has already been under discussion. There is a lot in the game, with the potential for very great depth of play, there are also frustrating problems which require fixes, you will either love, or hate this game. [:)]

[gwgardner]

you have to be updated to version 1.5. That supply issue for a surrounded unit was fixed a long time ago.

[dargoud]

Dear Raspu,

thx for taking the time to clarify some things. I will start another campaign game as the Axis and see how it goes.

I agree there is enormous potential here especially for people who want a medium lvl of complexity and just don´t have the time for life filling games like the HoI series where the admin was too complex and fighting was no fun (for me)


Thx again

Dargoud

PS: With Fog of war I meant some sign that the western allies were doing their part. Apparently they are doing very little as AI.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: dargoud

Dear Raspu,

PS: With Fog of war I meant some sign that the western allies were doing their part. Apparently they are doing very little as AI.

That's is how it looked to the Soviets during the war, in the real six year campaign there was a lot of waiting for something to happen. [:D]

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
you have to be updated to version 1.5. That supply issue for a surrounded unit was fixed a long time ago.

Is version 1.5 official yet, I have been using 1.05 beta with no problems, although I haven't been able to do much, due to preparations for a family wedding.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: dargoud
After heavy combat north of Moscow Guderian and his 1 str. corps get pushed into the northernmost Moscow hex. They don´t get totally surround but are at least 10 hexes from the next unit. They regenerate in Moscow while being under constant air and ground attack from 3 Russian corps.

Just to confirm the original comment, you should not leave city hexes without a garrison, regardless of supply issues, if your enemy (partisans, paradrop, weak advance units, amphibious landings for coastal cities/ports) gets into a city, they will receive supply from the captured city and be difficult to dislodge. Use minor allies, built cheap low tech level 1 divisions, or split bigger units, anything to get some units into vulnerable cities.

This stops the enemy just walking in (going to the bar, or not) and gives you time to bring in more powerful units to clean up.

These level 1 garrison units don't have to be a waste, whist they are defending the city they can be set to 'upgrade' into higher level, or mech and armoured units, or Corps. They are fixed during the upgrade, but they are not going anywhere, you can keep mobile units on the railways, to move in and deal with any incursions. You then will have new upgraded units to move to the front and build more level 1 unit to replace them as garrisons.[:)]

[baloo7777]

I have been waiting to upgrade to 1.05 until I finish the PBEM games I have going. Will it be an official upgrade soon (Matrix still has 1.04 listed)?

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777
I have been waiting to upgrade to 1.05 until I finish the PBEM games I have going. Will it be an official upgrade soon (Matrix still has 1.04 listed)?

AFAIK 1.05 is only out as beta for testing, I guess it will go official sometime, but don't know when.

[baloo7777]

AFAIK 1.05 is only out as beta for testing, I guess it will go official sometime, but don't know when.

How do you feel about the 1.05 upgrade? I am sure it will be a matrix upgrade eventually. If it fixes the problem of the Axis losing SMPs after the fall of Poland in the GC scenario, it is gold in my opinion (late Dec 1940 and still no SMPs in one PBEM game)! I feel TOF is really 2 seperate games. One as is for PBEM and one that can be modded/controlled vs AI. I keep saying I've had enough, and I keep going back to play another round.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

AFAIK 1.05 is only out as beta for testing, I guess it will go official sometime, but don't know when.

How do you feel about the 1.05 upgrade? I am sure it will be a matrix upgrade eventually. If it fixes the problem of the Axis losing SMPs after the fall of Poland in the GC scenario, it is gold in my opinion (late Dec 1940 and still no SMPs in one PBEM game)! I feel TOF is really 2 seperate games. One as is for PBEM and one that can be modded/controlled vs AI. I keep saying I've had enough, and I keep going back to play another round.

I have a copy of 1.05 beta, but due to preparations for a family wedding I have not had much time to use it, but it seems OK. Apart from the convoy routeing situation, I think most of the problems with the game come from weaknesses in scenario design. I have mostly used 'Fall Gelb' as the basis for my games and it has worked well, I know there are difficulties with other scenarios, much of which can be fixed in settings, events and small scale modding.

I am only able to play against the AI, can't give the time for PBEM and have been able to use personal house rules and simple modifications to get a more realistic and challenging game. I have played saved games through different versions of the game, one game has been in use through every version since v1.0. I keep a record of the main stats (also recorded in the 'Reports' section) and there is sometimes a major fall-off in PPs for no apparent reason (no events, etc.), knowing what the average PP levels should be, it can be restored through adjustment in F12.

Historically there is no reason for a nations's production to drop catastrophically (unless it is in defeat), using Germany as an example, despite the huge damage inflicted by the Allied bombing campaign, Germany was able to maintain high levels of production almost until the end, when the collapse finally happened. If you think the PP levels are wrong, put them back in F12 to where they should be. The developers have a view that after the campaign in Poland, Germany was initially unable to carry out any further major operations, if you don't agree with that then at least they have given the method to change it.

When you have invested hours in play, it seems reasonable to use any available tool to keep the game going. So, frustrating as it may be that the game has these problems, it also has the methods to fix most of them.

I have got the GUI settings to get the game looking the way I want, items like the transparent combat info boxes make the game easier to play and look great. This game has weaknesses like many other titles, but by playing to the strengths of the game I am enjoying it a lot. There is a lot in the workings of the game to be discovered, I think many people turn away without finding the full capabilities of the game.

You do have to work at it to get the game working better, but it can be very rewarding and I am having a lot of fun with it, it will be a favourite game for a long time. [:)]