12 shot wonders

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:27 pm

It seems to me that there is a basic difference between multi-shot weapons (like machine guns and massed rifles) and single shot weapons (like main guns). The latter have a real limit to the number of units that they can fire at. You can only reload so fast. However, the former can put out a wall of lead. Rifles/MG may fire and hit or miss a target, then another comes up and they fire again. Well, if you consider that the second unit was really moving up as the first one was, the second shot can be considered to represent the same bullets as the first shot. Its just that the shots seem to be sequential. Of course this assumes that both units are in the same field of fire.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 12:15 am

Larry's point is well taken. MGs should be able to just keep firing. The main gun should be a tad more limited as tohow many opfire shots the AI is allowed.

I have mixed feelings about the current opfire setup.

While I agree with Paul that such a system avoids the soak off tactic, it also eliminates the possibility of a mad charge by a large number against a small number of defenders.

This is where the Russians excelled. Since they could not fight on even ground with the Tigers and Panthers at long distances, they charged their T-34s in close, where their fire too became lethal even to the mighty Tiger.

Shermans did the same thing. They ganged up on a Tiger or two, and with sheer weight of numbers overpowered the stronger enemy.

This is very difficult, if not impossible to simulate.

Finally, if the AI can do it, why can't I do it? The AI gets 10 shots (literally). When my opfire turn comes, I get one - maybe two shots and that is it. And I had better not get any suppression or it will even take that second shot away from me

Don't take it away, just soften or lessen just a tad...please? Just a tad? To allow for some occasional mad charges without losing 8 of 10 tanks?

Wild Bill

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:50 am

As you say WB, its a matter of quantity and we'll see if the new changes in the next build will improve things!

The goal of special opfire is not to prevent the "rush" from working entirely, but to prevent you from being SURE it will work (because you see that the enemy has no more shots)!

ROF and range play a big role, so MGs and infantry get a greater chance of special opfire propotional to their higher ROF. We had to limit it to MA in tanks, so the MGs don't special opfire very often (if at all anymore) but that hopefully can be addressed in the future.

David F. Wall · Post by **David F. Wall** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:04 am

Would it help things to make subsequent special opportunity fire less probable? Cut
the chance of special opportunity fire with every shot, to some non-zero limit?

I'm not sure how many variables are involved, so it can be tough to keep from commenting unintelligently. This might happen already, for all I know.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:10 am

That requires adding a new database element to keep track of how many special opfire shots are taken, which is a MAJOR undertaking the way the data base is set up...so we have tried to avoid it.

I think our next beta build will address the problem...(fingers crossed)

Antonius · Post by **Antonius** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:16 am

I remember all too well SP games where a few unimportant units would draw all defensive fire from ennemy tanks to clear the way for engineers loaded on half-tracks who would then rush 15 hexes forward and go for the kill...

With special opp-fire mass attacks are still often successfull if:
- each attacking moves only a hex or two to lower the chance of prompting op-fire
- you fire anything at the target just to make it doesn't get the "0 supression" fire bonus
- you never let the target fire twice in a row at any of your tanks
- your units come from different directions and can not only take side shots but will also draw less opp-fire
- and sometimes you don't use all your shots but let the target draw opp-fire when it fires or moves in its own turn

- you play with 5.0: I just read some very intesting line about suppression now being taken into account for special opp-fire which should help making mass attacks more successfull....

In fact I also think that swarming one specific target should not be too successfull a tactic since it assumes levels of coordination that I suppose were hard to achieve in WWII in the heat and stress of battle. And it also assumes that each crew is willing to happily sacrifice itself or have their friends in the next tank killed...

The soviets are famous for their mass attacks but those were mostly blind charges and resulted in heavy losses.

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:23 am

I for one sure dont want to see the "junk tactics" come back into play
(using opfire with junk)

murx · Post by **murx** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:21 am

I think what me bugs most on 'spec ops fire' is the fact that a unit with exp 56 can have 3 normal defensive fires and then more then 10 spec ops... and on the other hand my veteran (short to l33t

) get only two - per platoon... (with half a batallion of tanks moving by at best range...)
There should be a limit (+ each additional spec op should be harder to achieve, maybe even with lower and lower hitchance...), like 4 for green 8 for regulars and so on.

Additionally I got a small prob with the number of units that may fire. I never get more then two units to fire dfensive, the AI gets more most of the time. That's not the main problem - but I wonder HOW the program selects which units may fire.
Like when I have a defensive position right bind a ridge with Engineers waiting to toast a tank and/or grunts. But then when the enemy closes in and gets at the top of the ridge the two farthest tanks may fire only and the other just sit there probably thinking: "...bah, this is only a diversion, I just look the other way"

murx

Mike Rothery · Post by **Mike Rothery** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:57 am

Originally posted by murx:
Like when I have a defensive position right bind a ridge with Engineers waiting to toast a tank and/or grunts. But then when the enemy closes in and gets at the top of the ridge the two farthest tanks may fire only and the other just sit there probably thinking: "...bah, this is only a diversion, I just look the other way"
murx

Yeah, I've had the identical glitch. Infantry behind a ridgeline, waiting with no supression. enemy unit sticks its nose over the top, and the op fire is offered to two units 10 hexes back!

Mike R

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:51 am

THe extra shots is a way to compensate for the idiocy of the AI. OPfire is random and strange circumstances ocurr, in pbem your're stuck with it - against the AI you can confirm opfire and it can't so the extra shots compensate.

Rewriting the AI may one day be a major project we under take down the road, but that is on a difficulty scale we can;t undertake right now. Its alot better than it used to be!

murx · Post by **murx** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 12:26 pm

AI - artificial yes, intelligence ,uhm, nope "

But I can't even think of a base algorithm/ploting for such a game, uhm, but maybe some rules on placing units

Esp. in defense/delay the AI could do much better if it wouldn't place it's units just randomly (OK, yeah, it prefers to put arty/PaK/FlaK more to the back, infantry to the front and tanks at the flanks ...)

But anywayss, I like to play SP-WAW - can't play SP1 anymore, dosn't work with my PC anymore.
murx

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:30 am

So getting back to the issue of an unknown number of special OP fire shots to avoid junk, soakoff tactics while keeping it real...

In real life if I apply enough suppressive fire and rush with enough units, some rushing units will get through untouched. To simulate this in the game perhaps the supression level of the firing unit can have a greater effect in the checks for special OP fire. That is, if I fire at the defender a lot so that I have an overwhelming fire advantage, he will be so busy ducking that he will be less likely to return fire. In game terms, if I fire at the defender a lot, the supression will go up. As it goes up the chance of passing the checks to get a special OP fire then go down. In this way I can still successfully rush the defender but only after I have created the conditions for the rush to be successful by simulating what would be done in real life, not by using junk tactics.

Now, if the supression level is already considered in the checks for special OP fire, perhaps it can be given a larger role in the checks.

Finally I would say that elite units are probably good enough to ignore those bullets wizzing around them and keep up a good defensive fire so they should be less effected by any supression.

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 2:05 am

We have taken Op-Fire to a new level. There are now three different type of Op-Fire being used in the game.

Point Blank Op-Fire: This Op-Fire is triggered when ever a moving unit moves next to it. If the unit is in a defense stance it will be triggered from 1 - 3 hexes away.

Special Op-Fire: It will now considered the units suppression level and will also and a small amount of suppression every time you Special Op-Fire. So the more you shoot the more suppression the unit receives.

Return OP-Fire: When one of your units gets shot at. There is a chance it will fire back even if it has used all of its shots.

I am sure Paul will jump in hear with some more details soon.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:06 am

Well, Larry, you describe very nearly what we have done. There indeed were some bugs in the old routines and I think we have them working as intended now. There always were 3 things that were suppose to trigger "special opfire", first is a general "random event" type, then a "return fire" type and then a "point blank" type.

Well they were a bit confused...

Now we have fixed them and thinking back to my inpiration when I'm trying to solve a problem (ASL) I remembered that Final protective fire could cause a morale check to the firing unit to simulat the fact that the sheer impetus of the enemy attakc can casue a morale failure. S

So a random amount of suppression is added to the attacker when special opfire is taken. Another problem was casued by the messege on the F5 buffer so it no longer says a shot is "special opfire" (and noting that the enemy would have no way of know it was anydifferent form any other opfire), just the shot result.

As you say now that suppression reduces the chance of opfire (and its hit chance a double whammy) so chance of opfire goes down somewhat, and taking a lot will leave you firing over your shoulder as you retreat away.

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:47 am

Cool. It was as you descibe it Larry as the way I thought it worked. So I was stymed by what I was actually seeing. That you said you'd look into it Paul, I had no doubt, and just goes to show why WAW will be around a long time to come. Great work Matrix behind the scene guys, we know you're there.

murx · Post by **murx** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:40 am

This might come a bit late but there are three wishes on opfire/defensive fire (or however it's called ) I got

1. Fire range reenabled. Right now I get opfire on units that have a range set on targets that are out off range. I guess the 'set range option' is only used in PBEM ?
So now I have to look always at what range I got the target and slect y/n.

2. Show 'to hit' chance when asking for opfire and not only weapon, target and range (so I dont have to guess if it's worth a shot).

3. Instead of set range, set 'to hit' chance (the estimated chance one get when targeting - which is most of the time different to the actual shot).
Maybe not the exact value but like
FIRE_AT_WILL [return fire + anything better then 10%],
TAKE_CHANCES [return fire at 10% + anything better then 33%]
GOOD_SHOT [return fire at 10% + anything better 50%]
and
SURE_SHOT [return fire at 33% + anything better then 75%]

Additional the experience/leader-skill could be calculated into the 'guessed to hit chance'.

I think this could greatly improve PBEM games and help in defensive missions.
murx

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 9:18 am

You will like the improved op fire routine. I'm very pleased with it so far...WB

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 10:13 am

I must tell you Paul and I just finished an online game and I used to Op-Fire at everything. Well now I don't. I really pick my shots. The new op-fire rules are tough.... If you shoot at everything the units gets surpressed fast and then in my turn I spend it rally the guys. Very cool... get ready to chance your gaming tactics again.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:50 pm

Guys, I seem to be the only one in the universe to notice thise, and have mentioned it on at least two occassions, which if I recall correctly noone, Matrix employee or otherwise, commented on, and that is, that with the player-directed opfire started, we lost the ability for one unit to kepp it's lock on one other unit. Test it yourself. You will find that if you use a tank to fire at an infantry unit, then cut that range to zero, it will not still have that target the next player turn. I would expect that in such a situation, at least, it would still keep a target which had never left it's sight. This has absolutely nothing to do with high suppression or any like reason, ALL units do not keep their last target anymore, no matter what you do. I was wondering whether if I left the range on, for a unit, whether if I 'always' denied any opfire opportunities, it would retain it's last target it fired on, and it's worse than that (as I explained).

What it appears to be doing is giving you what it last 'sighted' during opfire, and not what it last fired upon, so that, it NEVER retains it's last target from turn to turn, unless it's always spotting the same target at the end of opfire, in which case, it will have lost the target during opfire, for all the other units it spotted, and then appear to still have it, since it retargeted as it for the last unit, but this is by far an extreme example.

I suppose this loss of target retention hasn't been fixed, am I right? Is it something we have to live with if we want opfire player-controlled?

Venger · Post by **Venger** » Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:11 am

Originally posted by Alby:
I for one sure dont want to see the "junk tactics" come back into play
(using opfire with junk)

I think the selectable opfire solves this - at least for human players. You can choose to not opfire against my .30 cal jeep if you want, and hence not expend your opfire capability. Of course, it is opportunity fire after all, a well positioned defender has little to gain from taking long shots against poor value targets. Allowing the human to decide whether or not to fire addresses this quite nicely.

Of course the AI needs to know which units are targets of value...

Venger