Of Interest to ASL fans

larth · Post by **larth** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:51 am

Just some quick final comments before I hit the sack:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Ok put another way, what would you consider to be required, to translate actual ASL into a computer design, such that buying a computer program with the description Computer ASL Beyond Valour (I assume it would be a bit much to make the game all in one go, just like Combat Leader is assumed to need that approach), would imply, that playing the game on the computer was defacto no different than playing the board game, with the exception I don't need my tweezers to play it?

Actually this is the goal of JASL. I want to recreate the feeling of actual playing ASL. As far as possible. It will never be able to replace the feeling of a good FTF game. It can, however, allow play using the same mechanics as in ASL.

Now just to open up that question abit further, in ASL if I want a unit to move from hex A to hex B to hex C I am doing all the math consulting all the charts, while my opponent, is conducting Defensive fire if any. I am dealing with all the variables that are encountered during the move like always. Put another way, if I have not got the manual, and have not read the manual, well I won't have any basis for where to move the counters.

What is your vision to recreate the game on the computer? I would be actually annoyed, maybe even offended, perhaps call it sacriledge if I clicked on a unit, and I got a shaded area denoting movement potentials.

Heretic!! Burn Him!!

Why, I agree with you!

No burning required.

You drag the counter from A to B and release it there. Defensive fire is executed. Read the log. Ah, they are still alive - drag them to C. Still alive: set that DC.

But I don't see any reason as to why there can't be a tutorial mode (or newbie mode) where such possibilites are shown graphically, or an tutorial along the lines of Chapter K. "Please click on all units you believe are in LOS of your 666 in 1K4".

As for the rules; of course the will be required one way or another.

The Operational Art of War is a good example of a good game that relies on counters (a lot of counters).
Aside from ASL requiring the user be able to rotate the counter image, would it be much of a leap to add that function? (would it?, remember I am not code literate).

No, it would not be a great deal. I assume to keep track of which counters you have moved?

I am sure by now, there are some thinking, ahh just another elitist board gamer, doesn't want to do anything to make the game accessible to a novice wargamer.

Or both?

Hmm lets examine what we are talking about here. Computer ASL.
Ok right off the bat you are assuming you can even get a novice interested in the most well known scariest manualed wargame in existence.
Computer ASL has no future ever being a novice wargame. If you can swing it, you will have blown me away though.

But I think the only market for computer ASL will be the johnny come latelys that were not buying ASL from the mid to late 70's and on through the 80's.
The hard core gamer, that will appreciate a 100 dollar (don't think for a second your game is going to be doable at the common mainstream dollar value) option, instead of the 2-3000 dollar approach will be a willing client.

I think you are right; the market for computer ASL is not as big as for Steel Panthers. All other is open.

I am going to reeeeally try and check into JASL and see what the AI is like now.

Please let me know if you have any problems and what you think. Remember the AI sucks!

see you,
Lars

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:22 am

Originally posted by larth
Why should you *not* go ahead and make NASL something completely new and different? It may well blow the others out of the water.

Well competition is "suppose" to happen BETWEEN products not within one. Your WWII tactical wargame is better than his tactical wargame. Not lets all make our own versions of computer ASL and see which one is better. This is exactly what I meant. Lets say I do want to make what I believe would be better than VASL or JASL. Now I go to MMP and they say okay to that as well? When would it stop. They can't just greenlight everyone to do as they please with THEIR copyrighted materials. At some point they have to CHOOSE something and call it official, perhaps with the goal of eventually making it commercial. Its just bad business to do otherwise. Bad for them, bad for me, bad for anyone. Even if MMP states they are more interested in furthering ASL than they are in making money... such a statement cannot be true as it takes money and profitability to make that happen and we've already seen what problems MMP has had in this area with ASL and their other titles even more so.

The area of overlapping code is not large as it is.

You implied you also program for a living. Have you never been part of a multi-person development team? This is exactly how ANY development of any commercial game or application works. He writes some of the underlying code, you write the AI, that guy writes the directplay piece, so and so does the graphics and sound, and so on. On larger projects even something like the AI code can be broken down into pieces.

But at the same time I do understand where you are coming from. Im getting that your "vision" is different than his "vision" or at least what you most want to see vs what he does. Everyone wants full control. I would be no different. But if you forget all the nitty-gritty difficulties of achieveing it don't you think that ONE ASL Game in the end would be better than two seperate ones. That is, after all, all Im really saying. How can you disagree with that? Im not saying why it can or cant be done... just that that should be the preferable outcome regardless of whether its a commercial or freebie one, whether its VASL or JASL. Do you not agree that would be the best and most preferable end result?

not a single commercial game product uses Java." were pretty strong without leaving any room for doubt. People with no experience in programming might even believe it.

Alright, Im open to looking at any statistical or similar report you can point me to that says that C++ isn't the most common language used in commercial products. Yes I know Java, VB, C++, SQL, and tons of other stuff. Perhaps I was overly harsh but do you realize you fell into the "cliche" defense of java by stating that it supports linux as well? You cant seriously think there is even a measurable base of linux only home users out there wanting to play ASL? Linux can run an emulator anyways.

What do you see as the difference between the "smaller" JASL and a "FULL blown" version of computer ASL?

Perhaps nothing as your product isnt done. But it would need to eliminate the need for VASL, be sanctioned and approved by MMP, and make it so I did not have to own anything else to play it.

You seem to have a fixation with DirectX and C++.

DirectX is cool if you need your 80 frames per second in doom, but frankly I don't see this as a major problem in an ASL program where a piece may be moved every now and then... Not to mention that it wouldn't work as easily on other plattforms like Linux or others where Java runs.

Okay Im trying not to sound as harsh BUT what your stating does make some sense at first. Except that if you really build a SLICK interface then you are doing a lot more graphics manipulation. You are overlaying transparant boxes with information or combat results, repasting things, scrolling, and so on. It can all get pretty intense. This is why Uncommon Valor and others use DirectX and why they still perform supurbly and have nice interfaces(though as ASL is MUCH more complex I feel it would require even a better interface by far than UV). If all your are doing is drawning a mapboard and plunking counters down than I agree with LES that it just wont be any better, if even the same, as playing the boardgame. The interface has to be SLICK.

"The main problem "diehards" have is a total boardgame biased view which makes certain interface issues very difficult." - is it something which cannot be done in C++?

As Im sure you know C++ is pretty much the lowest level language still in use today. Its not that much lower than others but lower none-the-less. Lower equals more powerful though harder and perhaps more complex. This is simple fact. Doesn't necessarily mean its always the best choice for development but it does mean you can accomplish the most with it. The statement you reference is meant to illustrate a paradox of sorts with making a GREAT PC version of ASL. That is that what a PC version really needs as Ive already stated is a slick interface and some alternate ways to do or display things (without altering any rules) but at the same time the diehards are going to be married to the same old look despite whats better insisting you display for instance those prep fire counters... and then complain the game is no better or no easier. A Catch-22. You make it simpler and better you piss 'em off, you don't you piss 'em off. Well again perhaps too strong a wording but I know at least Les gets what I mean by this.

Try to reread your own posts and replace JASL (or VASL) with your up-front project.

Sorry I have no idea what you mean by this. Of the 3 "finished" pc adaptations of Up Front. Two dont even have any graphics. The other is the cyberboard pretty much graphics only zero logic version that no one even uses (IUF is by far the most used). So from the standpoint of doing my own thing there is nothing for me to build on. I also contacting MMP day one for permission.

I'm hopeing you'll get use to criticism. Every developer and publisher gets it. Even those who most love your game are going to whine about every little thing once they start playing it. Just look at all forums here as proof. Many times even before a game is made (GI Combat 2 being prime example). Some of the best feedback can come from those that are unhappy....

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:34 am

Originally posted by larth
Remember the AI sucks!

How do you plan to make it better?

What methodology and/or sources are you using to develop the AI?

Also since you mention you do intend to provide a fully playable PC game, not just some "PBEM tool" or equivelant for example, perhaps you can see more the objection some would have against it.

I do not believe in concepts like abadon-ware nor does the US courts (so I am against, for instance, the person who did Web Advanced Third Reich).

I also do not believe in an individuals right to do whatever they please with someone else's copyrighted material.

Anyone who has ever created something would understand that and feel the same way though clearly the world as a whole does not respect it or else 99% of us wouldnt be downloading MP3's, games, and so on.

If MMP green lights your project than my most major objection is removed. Then I'd only like to see you be "honest" and state that you would like to see your product basically be the de-facto PC ASL game eventually rendering the others "unnecessary".

Then you've given me all I've asked for in this thread without even realizing it! (I suppose aside from it not being written in C++ with DirectX)...

kungfucheez · Post by **kungfucheez** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:55 am

Hey is there a Free Downloadable Version of ASL?

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:19 pm

Sorry to burst your bubble Kungfu, no there is no "free downloadable ASL" quite in the way I suspect you are hoping.

There is VASL and there is JASL, but these two programs allow people that own the board game, to employ there computer as an interface so they can play it electronically as well.

But if you don't actually own the board game, you don't have any way to use those two programs. There is no "computer ASL" that you have missed.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:55 pm

Originally posted by kungfucheez
Hey is there a Free Downloadable Version of ASL?

You can play VASL just fine if all you buy is the ASL rulebook. You definitely don't need any of the playing pieces, and you dont need the mapboards either as long as you play against someone who is agreeable to the slight variations in the online representations. Since they affect both players equally I see no big deal other than the game needs a great LOS tool and more people need to get away from this "hangup" of using the actual boards.

So $50 and a free download or $1000 and a free download. How people can still think that EVERYONE is buying the modules that plays VASL is beyond me. When people bitch about a $50 computer game I hardly think they are all ready to drop hundreds on ASL modules.

Now its true many ASL'rs enjoy Face to Face play as well, but just as many have accepted that they do not have time, space, or the opponents to ever really do that again..

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:24 pm

Ohh phooey just call me elitist and be done with it

The only people whining about paying 50 bucks for computer games are wankers that wouldn't be caught dead admitting they play ASL in the first place.

ASL Rulebook 2nd Edition has sold out in just a few months after it hitting the electronic shelf.

Not sure where each copy went, but MMP has also just put on sale Operation Veritable, yet another full scale Historical Module.

For those needing perspective, picture it as a 60 dollar add on that only gives you a map a few counters, and a few custom rules. Basically the standard issue expensive computer game expansion.

No one is bitching in the ASL community.

My ASL Annuals Magazine collection (complete too boy am I proud) could fetch me in excess of 400 bucks alone. And they are just magazines eh.

The ASL community actually fights over which module gets produced next. They ain't having trouble buying em at all. You think the guys wanting Modern for Combat Leader are anxious, you ain't seen nothing.

The only person that will chose franken ASL over the real game, is a loser that will play a hacked demo for a week till the next hacked demo shows up to interest them for 2.3 weeks if that.

No one in the ASL community gives a hoot about that sort of person. I know I don't.

A computer program to run ASL on my computer will be nice. To actually play it a bit against an AI won't be so bad, but I doubt the ASL community will spend a lot of energy using it.
But VASL or JASL or any other option, will never be anything more than a tool to any real ASLer.

If it is true you can "play ASL" without actually owning anything but a rules manual, well that has just established that some will cheap out on the finer things in life and nothing more.

That is perhaps why MMP doesn't care to to some extent. Maybe Curt Shilling thinks as do I, that only a wierdo the community won't miss is going to want to play ASL that way.

No I am not magically "better" than the new wargamer (I often wonder why I get that remark sometimes with the attitude as expressed above), I am just unwilling to settle for frankenASL which I intend to use as a term to denote any concept of the game, that pretends you can enjoy the game without the game.

kungfucheez · Post by **kungfucheez** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:00 pm

all you had to say was no not give me an essay

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:14 pm

Don't sweat it Kungfu some wargamers never give simple answers to anything.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:15 pm

After all you can't spell analytical without ANAL heheh

kungfucheez · Post by **kungfucheez** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:22 pm

you cant spell Les the Sarge 9-1 without laughing

larth · Post by **larth** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:21 am

Originally posted by Veldor
You implied you also program for a living. Have you never been part of a multi-person development team? This is exactly how ANY development of any commercial game or application works.

I have done that for more years that I care to count, but am now a manager and don't to get to program as much as I would like to. Only it is hard to break parts down when I am doing this alone.

But I do that too for JASL.

But if you forget all the nitty-gritty difficulties of achieveing it don't you think that ONE ASL Game in the end would be better than two seperate ones. That is, after all, all Im really saying. How can you disagree with that? Im not saying why it can or cant be done... just that that should be the preferable outcome regardless of whether its a commercial or freebie one, whether its VASL or JASL. Do you not agree that would be the best and most preferable end result?

No, I do not agree on that generic statement. But even if I did, what if MMP wants to have two commercial products which can work together? VASL supports many games on broad basis, JASL only one but in a different way. Which is better? There are many ways to measure "better".

Alright, Im open to looking at any statistical or similar report you can point me to that says that C++ isn't the most common language used in commercial products. Yes I know Java, VB, C++, SQL, and tons of other stuff. Perhaps I was overly harsh but do you realize you fell into the "cliche" defense of java by stating that it supports linux as well? You cant seriously think there is even a measurable base of linux only home users out there wanting to play ASL?

And before that it was C that was most common and before that is was assembler that was most common.

There is a large a number of Linux users that comment on JASL, indeed the first ones trying it out was Linux users. Which was amazingly cool since up to that time I had mainly used Win for writing it.

In addition there are Macintosh users that are also intrested in it. The Java GUI under the new Aqua is extremly good looking, IMO the best of all the Java looks. Actually so brilliant that my next laptop could be one, especially since the OS now is based on Unix.

Thus java allows a program to target the biggest possible market (if your intrest is in that way) in addition to providing a really productive environment.

Linux can run an emulator anyways.

Hmmm, what does this do to your performance? Using an emulator will slow the program down a lot and require additional testing (not everything runs under the various emulators you know). And java makes that a non-requirement.

But it would need to eliminate the need for VASL, be sanctioned and approved by MMP, and make it so I did not have to own anything else to play it.

That is your opinion. As I said earlier I have no plans on including the VASL player versus player functionality.

Okay Im trying not to sound as harsh BUT what your stating does make some sense at first. Except that if you really build a SLICK interface then you are doing a lot more graphics manipulation. You are overlaying transparant boxes with information or combat results, repasting things, scrolling, and so on. It can all get pretty intense.

You make it sound like playing ASL requires a sack full of chrome just because it happens on a computer. The first priority must be in the functionality and ease of use, not in whistles and bells. It doesn't really matter how cool it looks if you're unable to use it. Many players of various computer games insist on being able to use the keyboard of input - how glamorous is that?

As Im sure you know C++ is pretty much the lowest level language still in use today. Its not that much lower than others but lower none-the-less. Lower equals more powerful though harder and perhaps more complex. This is simple fact.

Before I answer this I need to know what you mean with lowest-level and powerful.

I'm hopeing you'll get use to criticism. Every developer and publisher gets it. Even those who most love your game are going to whine about every little thing once they start playing it. Just look at all forums here as proof.

I have been getting a lot of practice here in the last few days, thank you. And, no, I have no problem dealing with it. Takes time away I could spend better, but there you are.

regards,
Lars

larth · Post by **larth** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:25 am

Originally posted by Veldor
Then I'd only like to see you be "honest" and state that you would like to see your product basically be the de-facto PC ASL game eventually rendering the others "unnecessary".

One chess game don't make others unnecessary, does it? As for what I want, that is to see JASL being able to play a game of ASL with me one day.

regards,
Lars

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:34 am

Some days, it could be said, the computer was the single worst thing to happen to wargaming heheh.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:43 am

I'm quite bored with this thread as it accomplishes nothing when people do not respond to direct questions asked of them. Instead we all just post in endless circles.

But I would like to say Les that your last comments about ASL and ASL players are pretty much why you see so very little new blood to begin with in that community.

If a new player doesn't instantly fess up to the fact that ASL is the holyest of all games and better than all else and fall in line with community practice and beliefs, there is no place at all for them.

It's a very friendly community amongst itself.. but so caught up in itself it never realizes how it treats the outside world nor how the outside world sees it.

Perhaps you are right and MMP and Curt himself does see the rest as just "freaks" or whatever you want to call it. But to me a customer is a customer and it makes little business sense to ignore a set of people just because they don't have your same beliefs, wants and desires as the "inner circle" does...

Perhaps the real "freaks" are the ASL players and its the rest of the wargaming population that is sane and normal.

I don't think ASL is the best wargame ever made. I play LOTS of other things besides ASL. I don't hold some paper and cardboard elements as SACRED over the same exact stuff put into electronic form. The game is the game and the rules are the rules.

But if the ASL community has enough $$$ to keep publishing the titles it wants without new money and blood and its happy with the electronic tools as they are.. Then so be it. That doesn't leave me happy nor some others but since when did the ASL community give a #%&* about what anyone else wants?

I think its a warped perception to think that every ASL purchaser is out there begging for every new module and dropping their money on it. But just as you said why shouldn't they? They'd have to be crazy to spend it on something else first or instead. Any ASL module is worth more than some little PC product.

Les I'd accuse you of trying to make your opinions speak for the entire ASL populous. Except, in this case, I really think your opinions are the general consensous of the ASL community.

I just think its rather close-minded, highly exclusive, and as you already mentioned being accused of .. somewhat arrogant or at least somewhat selfish.

Maybe thats whats keeping all the new players away.. and not the lack of a better Chapter K?????

kungfucheez · Post by **kungfucheez** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:13 am

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:18 am

Originally posted by kungfucheez
ok

KungFuCheez,

Your quickly earning a reputation for being one highly opinionated fookr around here..

You might want to tone it down a notch or two

Ludovic Coval · Post by **Ludovic Coval** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:24 am

Veldor,

MFC is another example of something far easier to use but seldom used in games (Not never. I believe Flashpoint Germany from Matrix is using MFC which I am a beta tester of and it applies nicely there).

Robert may correct me but I believe that FPG is written in Delphi. AFAIK the only Matrix games using MFC is Battlefields!.

larth,

Welcome

. (BTW should not be "2b || !2b" ?

LC

kungfucheez · Post by **kungfucheez** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:26 am

what are you getting mad at me for?!?!?!! All i said was O.K wow what point have we reached when someone gets mad at another person for saying "O.K" really, have we reached this low people?

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:36 am

Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
Veldor,

Robert may correct me but I believe that FPG is written in Delphi. AFAIK the only Matrix games using MFC is Battlefields!.

larth,

Welcome . (BTW should not be "2b || !2b" ?

LC

HEHE. Yes you are correct FPG is written in Delphi, but MFC is something different. MFC is the Microsoft Foundation Class libraries and is a C++ library for doing windows programming. I don't know much about Delphi so I don't know if Delphi can "technically" use MFC also or simply uses its own equivelant of it but basically the statement still applies.

MFC provides an easier way to make "controls" like drop down lists, check boxes, property sheet pages, and so on. FPG uses a TON of this type of stuff and I would be 99% sure he is using MFC or an equivalent. If you didn't use MFC you would have a more custom look like Uncommon Valor or most games have. Now traditionally MFC in games is highly frowned upon as it has a good amount of overhead (especially coupled with DirectX which I believe FPG is still using also). BUT with the skinning tools and other such things FPG is employing the benefits far outweigh the negatives in that basically you are providing an interface that is on par with the best of business apps. That most games cant even touch. Property Sheets are awesome, in game editor, all the right clicking, mapi email support, and so on.

So I forget the context within which I mentioned it, but it was definitely meant as a positive in the case of FPG. Though it is somewhat "non-standard".

It will be interesting to see how Battlefields also employs MFC. It provides a lot of added functionality and stability, not too mention simplicity in programming that makes certain things possible that can't be done easily otherwise. In the right game it could be everything, used for the wrong purpose it can cause unwanted sluggishniss and an unneeded "boring" appearance that wouldn't otherwise need to be addressed.