Well, since I have quit playing the game
Moderators: Joel Billings, Tankerace, siRkid
Well, since I have quit playing the game
I thought I'd drop back in and see if anyone has managed to get some real pilots in the aircraft. I quit playing when morale would sink 20 points a mission or so, it seemed. I had an uncle who flew in that war, in the Solomons from the Canal to Bouganville, and if these feather merchant's had been flying with him, he would have put a boot in their posterior or taken them into the boondocks for a little rock's and shoals. Fly two days of combat and then have to retire to the rear for two weeks of R & R to get back to an average morale factor - and the morale is bad enough to keep the little boys on the gorund when their buddys are getting their butts shot up - the game has, for all intents and purposes for me gone on the shelf until the pilots start acting like they have a pair.
"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I agree with the sentiment.
When these guys aren't throwing hissy-fits, they are acting like big girl's blouses.
"Two missions in one day!!! You have to be kidding me!?!".
Perhaps the major hits to fatigue and morale were introduced to add an extra element of skill to the game, kinda like a Hollywood director handling their prima-donna star with kid gloves to get some performance outta them.
When these guys aren't throwing hissy-fits, they are acting like big girl's blouses.
"Two missions in one day!!! You have to be kidding me!?!".
Perhaps the major hits to fatigue and morale were introduced to add an extra element of skill to the game, kinda like a Hollywood director handling their prima-donna star with kid gloves to get some performance outta them.
Never give up, never surrender
I am not a grog so I ignore fatige and morale.
There are 2 pulses per day so I expect squadrons to fly twice each day.
But there are so many squadrons that I cannot tell whether any squadron actually flew.
Example: there are 2 squadrons of P 40s at Moresby. They are both flying escort.
I expect to see 2 messages "P40 flying escort". If I see more than 2, I get confused with the other 20 air missions all around the map.
If I see less than 2 then they are not missed as there are so many messages from all over the map.
So how can I tell if a mission actually flew?
There are 2 pulses per day so I expect squadrons to fly twice each day.
But there are so many squadrons that I cannot tell whether any squadron actually flew.
Example: there are 2 squadrons of P 40s at Moresby. They are both flying escort.
I expect to see 2 messages "P40 flying escort". If I see more than 2, I get confused with the other 20 air missions all around the map.
If I see less than 2 then they are not missed as there are so many messages from all over the map.
So how can I tell if a mission actually flew?
I suspect that the high fatigue costs are a kludge in an attempt to limit ahistorical results.
Otherwise a good Jap would just about shut down movement.
Otherwise a good Jap would just about shut down movement.
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
When I play a PBEM game we set the turn length to 2 days.
If there are 2 pulses each day, then each squadron will fly 4 times each “turn”.
If there are 20 squadrons operating, then I expect to see 80 messages “this squadron is doing that”.
If one squadron fails to fly, there is no way that I am going to notice.
At the beginning of a turn, how can I check whether a squadron actually flew in the last turn?
Dilemma: if a squadron has high fatigue: should I withdraw it or use it to intercept enemy bombers?
If there are 2 pulses each day, then each squadron will fly 4 times each “turn”.
If there are 20 squadrons operating, then I expect to see 80 messages “this squadron is doing that”.
If one squadron fails to fly, there is no way that I am going to notice.
At the beginning of a turn, how can I check whether a squadron actually flew in the last turn?
Dilemma: if a squadron has high fatigue: should I withdraw it or use it to intercept enemy bombers?
Re: Well, since I have quit playing the game
Originally posted by RevRick
I thought I'd drop back in and see if anyone has managed to get some real pilots in the aircraft. I quit playing when morale would sink 20 points a mission or so, it seemed. I had an uncle who flew in that war, in the Solomons from the Canal to Bouganville, and if these feather merchant's had been flying with him, he would have put a boot in their posterior or taken them into the boondocks for a little rock's and shoals. Fly two days of combat and then have to retire to the rear for two weeks of R & R to get back to an average morale factor - and the morale is bad enough to keep the little boys on the gorund when their buddys are getting their butts shot up - the game has, for all intents and purposes for me gone on the shelf until the pilots start acting like they have a pair.
This is one of the things that I have complained about in the past, with never any response from the Designers. I guess this is what GG wants and since it's his sandbox, he does what he wants.
It's too bad, because it is an irritation and makes for lots of unrealistic busywork in setting flying time and so on to raise morale. But it's just another of those "control" issues that they just refuse to acknowledge is bad and where they won't give the players any flexibility.
Dave Baranyi
Well, up until 2.3 I recommended the game..
to my friends. But not now. Just to much *$#E_*&% busy work keeping up with the "morale" of a bunch of light weights with only tail and tots in the rear area as the means of getting them ready to fight.
"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
One thing I have noticed tho is that, air squadrons do NOT suffer from malarial fatigue like ground units. Why should air squadrons be any different? Granted their living conditions were better than the front-line troops, but just as the HQ units suffer fatigue (just like a combat formation whos condions would be considerably worse), so should the air-squadrons.
All that considered, if your squadrons were at a constant 30% fatigue, plus -any- effects of moral, your guys would never get off the ground. But I do consider the high rate of moral loss, somewhat balanced by the fact that your pilots AREN'T suffering fatigue loss.
I don't believe that the fact that the lack of malarial fatige was INTENDED to offset the high loss of moral; but I think it works well enough.
My 2 pfennigs.
-F-
All that considered, if your squadrons were at a constant 30% fatigue, plus -any- effects of moral, your guys would never get off the ground. But I do consider the high rate of moral loss, somewhat balanced by the fact that your pilots AREN'T suffering fatigue loss.
I don't believe that the fact that the lack of malarial fatige was INTENDED to offset the high loss of moral; but I think it works well enough.
My 2 pfennigs.
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
-
SoulBlazer
- Posts: 766
- Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:28 am
- Location: Providence RI
I never let ONE aspect of a game stop me from playing it. And I never have those major morale problems. If you want, wait till the next patch comes out, but realize that it's almost certain that WILL be the last patch.
(Besides, we don't need any Dolphin supporters here.
Go Pats!)
(Besides, we don't need any Dolphin supporters here.
Go Pats!) The US Navy could probaly win a war without coffee, but would prefer not to try -- Samuel Morison
WTF is morale?
I don't even look at my fatigue or morale or whatever factors. The guys fly until they have about 3-5 planes left in the squadron, including the ones under repair. After that they get some R&R if they are lucky. If not, they fly until it shows 0-0 planes left (low replacement plane types such as P-400).
The guys keep on flying, shooting at the enemy and so forth. No problem. It's a war out there.
Cheers,
--Mikko
The guys keep on flying, shooting at the enemy and so forth. No problem. It's a war out there.
Cheers,
--Mikko
Re: WTF is morale?
Originally posted by msaario
I don't even look at my fatigue or morale or whatever factors. The guys fly until they have about 3-5 planes left in the squadron, including the ones under repair. After that they get some R&R if they are lucky. If not, they fly until it shows 0-0 planes left (low replacement plane types such as P-400).
The guys keep on flying, shooting at the enemy and so forth. No problem. It's a war out there.
Cheers,
--Mikko
May, I thought I was tough on my pilots.
I’ve noticed that the morale for my A6M squadrons goes UP when they get into combat and goes down if I have them stand down or give them sweep missions at 100 feet (strafing). My CV-based planes are fine after one or two days of not flying and they are usually good for 8-10 days of flying before I have to let them rest.
My G4Ms, on the other hand, always seem to have their morale around 40-50 but that’s acceptable. It means they will only fly about one-half of the time but then that lets them reduce their fatigue when they are not flying. If I absolutely need them for a mission (to suppress a base, for example) I rest them for a couple of days before I begin my offensive.
Yamamoto
To Clarify ....
My brain was functioning faster than my hands could follow - it is both morale and fatigue factors that are dropping faster than troopers at the Little Big Horn. Ran three games in Sc. 14, haven't made it past October with more than two effective fighter squadrons in the SWPAC Opperating area, and at best one in SOPAC - and those are the one's I leave at rear areas. Morale runs down around 30 - fatigue at as much as 70. And it doesn't seem to matter how long they stand down on base - they sit there and do NOT improve by any appreciable amount.
CV pilots - one day ops - not even engaged with enemy CV's - supporting landings - and fatigure shoots into the high 60's and morale shot to, well you know. Only thing left to do is pull a Fletcher and run like a striped butted ape and hope the G4M's don't try an unescorted raid - which they do with amazing frequency and unexcelled accuracy. If the real campaign played out as this game does, we would have been in a world of hurt, Nimitz would have been canned, Dewey would have sued for peace, and I wouldn't be here because Daddy wouldn't have made it back from the Pacific.
CV pilots - one day ops - not even engaged with enemy CV's - supporting landings - and fatigure shoots into the high 60's and morale shot to, well you know. Only thing left to do is pull a Fletcher and run like a striped butted ape and hope the G4M's don't try an unescorted raid - which they do with amazing frequency and unexcelled accuracy. If the real campaign played out as this game does, we would have been in a world of hurt, Nimitz would have been canned, Dewey would have sued for peace, and I wouldn't be here because Daddy wouldn't have made it back from the Pacific.
"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Morale/fatigue does seem somewhat overblown. I've been playing
scen14 as well.major probs with morale/fatigue with the level bombers, a little less with the fighters. Then,for some reason, at the end of '42, squadrons started to recover morale/fatigue faster. Does anyone know if the overall course of a campaign has an effect on all air assets,not just induvidual squadrons. In other words, if the war is going well, is there some programming in there that gives an across the board increase in recovery rates.
Thx.
scen14 as well.major probs with morale/fatigue with the level bombers, a little less with the fighters. Then,for some reason, at the end of '42, squadrons started to recover morale/fatigue faster. Does anyone know if the overall course of a campaign has an effect on all air assets,not just induvidual squadrons. In other words, if the war is going well, is there some programming in there that gives an across the board increase in recovery rates.
Thx.
Re: To Clarify ....
Originally posted by RevRick
Morale runs down around 30 - fatigue at as much as 70. And it doesn't seem to matter how long they stand down on base - they sit there and do NOT improve by any appreciable amount.
I'm playing the US in a 2.30 PBEM game and I see fairly rapid morale increases with air groups withdrawn to Townsville or Noumea (and "stood down" of course.)
I've never had a squadron get fatigue above 55 or so. EVER.
No idea what you are doing.
perhaps you should work the system?
A lot of things I read in this thread are simply untrue! I can increase either at will, and I prefer to engage with units rated at 95 to 99! As Yamamoto says, ratings over 50 are very acceptable. Below that, if you are committing to air combat, you are asking for units to abort, and not press their attacks. Except for ASW, which is a secret mission I guess. This is the one that builds morale above 70. For fighters, just put em on CAP at 10% in a place there will be no fight. Nothing like a little drill.
The algoritms for air combat are the most sophisticated I have ever seen. As Yamamoto reports, morale can go UP in air combat. If it goes down, your guys got into a discouraging situation. Bombers suffer when they take lots of AA hits, lots of fighter opposition, or when they fly very low. All of which makes sense to me.
The algoritms for air combat are the most sophisticated I have ever seen. As Yamamoto reports, morale can go UP in air combat. If it goes down, your guys got into a discouraging situation. Bombers suffer when they take lots of AA hits, lots of fighter opposition, or when they fly very low. All of which makes sense to me.
Sure Elcid, we do work the system and it aint that bad.
It's just a little annoying to work a system that gives the impression pilots in the South Pacific were a little effeminate and couldn't stand up to any sort of sustained ops.
Have you ever had your CV CAP or escorts refuse to fight because they didn't get their usual 16 hours beauty sleep?
I have, when I was learning the system and it definitely gives the impression they were a bunch of spoilt candy-asses.
It's just a little annoying to work a system that gives the impression pilots in the South Pacific were a little effeminate and couldn't stand up to any sort of sustained ops.
Have you ever had your CV CAP or escorts refuse to fight because they didn't get their usual 16 hours beauty sleep?
I have, when I was learning the system and it definitely gives the impression they were a bunch of spoilt candy-asses.
Never give up, never surrender
The Point is, El Cid..
that I am employing the same system I have from Version 1.0 through version 2.2 and the results with 2.3 are radically different. Squadrons tire much faster, as in higher fatigue factors, and the morale goes into the tank as fast as the squadrons fatigue - which they DID NOT do before 2.3. Further, they DO NOT recover at anywhere near the rate they did in the previous versions. Something is WRONG with the tweaking..
"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I honestly don't know what I'm doing right then.
Most of my CAP squadrons fly at 70% constantly. During protracted engagements, like the guys at PM when it's under constant pounding, will start to flag in fatigue and moral, in which case, I rotate them out for about 10 days.
My bombers almost always fly at 6000', and normally bomb whatever target I assign (usu once a day). If there's heavy CAP over target, they will take a moral hit, but again, I stand them down for a week (their mission taken over by bombardment TFs as available), and they're happy again.
And regarding moral, I have seen little effect (if any) for bomber squadrons with moral over 50. Obvsiouly, under 50 affects whether they fly or not, but if you keep it at 52, it appears to me to have no effect. I have -not- observed that moral in the 80s+ does a bomber squadron any good. CAP maybe (probably), but I've not seen any benenfit to higher moral in bombers, so you might as well keep flying them as long as your moral remains in the 50s.
-F-
Most of my CAP squadrons fly at 70% constantly. During protracted engagements, like the guys at PM when it's under constant pounding, will start to flag in fatigue and moral, in which case, I rotate them out for about 10 days.
My bombers almost always fly at 6000', and normally bomb whatever target I assign (usu once a day). If there's heavy CAP over target, they will take a moral hit, but again, I stand them down for a week (their mission taken over by bombardment TFs as available), and they're happy again.
And regarding moral, I have seen little effect (if any) for bomber squadrons with moral over 50. Obvsiouly, under 50 affects whether they fly or not, but if you keep it at 52, it appears to me to have no effect. I have -not- observed that moral in the 80s+ does a bomber squadron any good. CAP maybe (probably), but I've not seen any benenfit to higher moral in bombers, so you might as well keep flying them as long as your moral remains in the 50s.
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
