Rethinking turn 1

[Peltonx]

AGC

[Peltonx]

AGS; All pockets are rock solid and all Mot/Panzer Divisions will have 40+ MP's turn 2.Not done moving all support units.

Most of the manpower centers are in the south. So if your shooting for a draw, Hitler was right. The south is more important then Moscow.

[innocent_bystander]

Hi, sorry of the offtopic, may I ask what map mod are you using? I like it a lot. Thanks

[morvael]

tm.asp?m=3327255

[Bozo_the_Clown]

This pocket is not rock solid at all. Just look at the tank regiment southwest of Rovno. I know it's an old post but I felt like commenting on it.

[Priapus1]

What has happened to Pelton?

[innocent_bystander]

Noob question: When is a pocket considered rock solid? Do you need to place a unit in every hex around the pocket (eg like on the AGS screenshot east of Rovno)? Is it enough to have a ZOC around them and a unit in every other hex? Or just a ZOC without units?

[swkuh]

Solid or soft is in yours & opponents eyes only. Pockets can be broken if not cleaned up in some reasonable time. What can your opponent muster and what is your opponent's intentions? Pocket battles can overwhelm other good intentions.

In some cases, using ZOCs is sufficient while multiple stacked units can fail.

[innocent_bystander]

Lets say the enemy is too weak fight its way out and there is nobody to help them. I just don't want them to sneak out of the pocket. Do you need to put a unit in every hex otherwise they sneak out through holes in the line?

[loki100]

Here the issue of morale is important. A typical Soviet unit struggles to move far into active Zones of Control in the opening turns due to low morale - so here you might get away with a pocket sealed mainly by ZoC if it is deep enough.

Best trick is to play turn 1 against yourself a few times, setting all the stances to 100%. Create what you think is a good pocket and then try to break it.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

There is no zone of control issue because it's a tank regiment. You move the out of supply division against the regiment and then you attack the regiment with tanks from 16th army. Those tanks are useless anyway so why not waste them on turn 1. I played a game against a guy who did a carbon copy of this pocket. It can be broken in two places. This is not rock solid. What happens on T2 is a totally different question.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

There is no zone of control issue because it's a tank regiment. You move the out of supply division against the regiment and then you attack the regiment with tanks from 16th army. Those tanks are useless anyway so why not waste them on turn 1. I played a game against a guy who did a carbon copy of this pocket. It can be broken in two places. This is not rock solid. What happens on T2 is a totally different question.

I wasn't commenting on the displayed image, just a general comment as to when you may want a solid wall of units and when you can get away with zones of control.

[Odin]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

The turn 1 axis threads have produced some good ideas, as have some of the AARs. I believe, however, we are seeing an evolution in thinking about turn 1 moves. Before there was a good deal of emphasis on encircling as many units as possible. But their have been some dissents to this idea, emphasizing instead the need to get the infantry moving east as fast as possible. With that in mind, I wish to offer a new turn 1 variant.

In the north and center, this variant has the following goals:
1) clear out as many enemy units in the areas west of the Dvina and Minsk as possible. No more having infantry spend turn 2 cleaning up pockets. Instead, the emphasis is on hex conversion to ease the path for the rapid advance of the ground pounders.

2) Secure Riga right away, do not let it be fortified. Also, it can be used as a supply source until the rail head makes it up there on turn 3.

3) Secure the crossing of the Dvina. On turn 2 the Panzers should be across the Velikaya adjacent to Pskov.

4)Clear a large area between Minsk and the Dvina since Pz Gruppe 3 can use this lightly defended area to get to the Dnepr on turn 2.

In the South the goals are:

1) Secure the Lvov pocket, eliminating the threat posed by those units and severely damaging the Soviet ability to defend in the south.

2) Capture cities that could be used as hedgehog strong points.

3) Clear the Stalin line entrenchments so they cannot be used by stay behind units.

4) damage and route as many Soviet units as possible.

On turn two the XIV Pz Corps and LAH will join up with Pz Gruppe 2 to make up for the assets borrowed from that army by AGS.

Hello,

please forgive a WITE beginner a stupid question:-)

This Bialystok Pocket...is that a real pocket?

I think to have a unit in pocket means it must be surrounded completely by enemy Units?

Or is it enough to have these controlled fields around them?

My thoughts are the two units there could simply move away, as Long as no enemy unit stopps them.

Thanks in advance!

Odin:-)

[carlkay58]

An isolated unit is surrounded by enemy controlled hexes. So the Bialystok Pocket is isolated for the Soviets. If the Soviets had sufficient MPs (which they don't) they could bust out of the pocket.

[2gaulle]

do I'm wrong or it's no more possible to use naval transport to Riga on turn one with 1.08.07 version

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

do I'm wrong or it's no more possible to use naval transport to Riga on turn one with 1.08.07 version

no that's been removed was to easy to move troops up the coast.

[2gaulle]

Thank Pelton

[Ridgeway]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

do I'm wrong or it's no more possible to use naval transport to Riga on turn one with 1.08.07 version

no that's been removed was to easy to move troops up the coast.

On the other hand, once the Germans capture a port, it is 100% damaged for both sides. I am pretty sure that in the old days if the Russians moved back in, they could instantly use the port as a supply source (which required the Germans to garrison all those Baltic ports in order to keep the Riga pocket sealed). That is no longer an issue.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

do I'm wrong or it's no more possible to use naval transport to Riga on turn one with 1.08.07 version

no that's been removed was to easy to move troops up the coast.

That's true but you still have to roll the ports turn 1 with a MoT unit, infantry mop up following turn.

On the other hand, once the Germans capture a port, it is 100% damaged for both sides. I am pretty sure that in the old days if the Russians moved back in, they could instantly use the port as a supply source (which required the Germans to garrison all those Baltic ports in order to keep the Riga pocket sealed). That is no longer an issue.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Not to spoil the thread here, but personally, I think the evolution of "best moves" for each front sector is somehow a bit uncomfortable. It is a matter of taste of course, but my personal preference is for wargames to be simulations with a degree of uncertainty.

IIRC it has been suggested by someone in some other thread, but I think there might be some merit to a slight randomization of the locations of the initial Soviet forces. That would create enough uncertainty that there wouldn't eventually evolve a set of predefined options.

I would propose that WitE is a game. A game consists of interactions, constraints (rules) , environment that match skill/luck/strategy. WitE has a set of very complex constraints but I would not go as far as framing the discussion around simulation.
Given that WitE is a game say like chess (though chess has much simpler rules, a fixed environment, no luck .. it does have a complex stratagem ) what is wrong in exploring opening white moves? I would propose that the key question is if somehow this discussion renders WitE to the realm of tic-tac-tow where a single strategy yields an optimal repeatable result. Then players will lose interest and the game will die. Until then, I propose discussions like these increase interest in the game with a focus on the strategy and skill generated through these discussions to more players .. keeping the game alive ..