P-47s: Hammer of God?

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

ORIGINAL: obvert

The Japanese had several good designs and some prototypes built, such as the J7W, for fighters that could intercept the B-29s over the HI and deal a bit better at least with the better Allied fighters. Trouble was they coldn't even get the mid-war models figured out and operating in numbers, and by the time the late war types were ready to produce, the factories were getting blown up and the war was nearly over.

We in game have it a bit easier as long as the B-29s don't get going too early. [;)]

The J7W was one of those fantasies-come-to-life that had the potential to kill more Japanese pilots than Americans. The first prototype was completed in April 1945, but it took another four months of fiddling before designer/test pilot Masaoki Tsuruno was able to taxi the plane from the hangar to the runway without overheating the engine - which was what happens when you bury a 2,100 hp air-cooled radial in the rear fuselage. On its three test flights, Masaoki discovered that the torque effect was so bad he couldn't use full takeoff power (he also encountered significant vibrations in the propeller shaft). Total flight time was 45 minutes, during which the landing gear was never retracted. Similar American designs, such as the XP-55 Ascender and the XP-56 Black Bullet revealed some significant stability issues in this type of tailless design -- they could be solved, but not without a lot of time and further research.

Yes, and this and some other planes are only in the game cause the war may last longer. They are actually phantasy modells if we are serious. Also I doubt the armament of it. It has 4 x 30mm right ? Good against bombers, but it is not fast enough to escape the late Allied fighters and 30mm wasnt the best against fast fighters... imho. Same with Me 262 but it was too fast to catch (except take off / landing )

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
Check out the German plane called "DO 335" this would be the answer. If Japan had gotten plans etc. early enough. But not even stupid Germans would build it fast enough cause crazed Hitler&Co. were still facinated with building bombers (like Me262 case too)....[;)]
Ah and as the DO has 2 pretty reliable engines (iirc) they wouldnt have bad service rates like jets etc. And not problem with specific fuel you need for jets

The stories that Hitler was responsible for the Me-262 delays is a myth. Hitler did interfere, but it wasn't the bottleneck. Engine development and Allied bombing disruptions was more responsible.

The Do-335 would have been a good bomber interceptor, but it was as complex as a Ju-88 or B-25 and took comparable resources to build. Germany didn't have the resources to build such aircraft in large numbers. Japan didn't have the resources either.

The Do-335 used DB-603 engines which were an evolution of the DB-601 that were built under license in Japan. But the license built DB-601s proved to be unreliable in Japanese service and the Japanese did much better with radial designs.

Bill

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The stories that Hitler was responsible for the Me-262 delays is a myth. Hitler did interfere, but it wasn't the bottleneck. Engine development and Allied bombing disruptions was more responsible.

The Do-335 would have been a good bomber interceptor, but it was as complex as a Ju-88 or B-25 and took comparable resources to build. Germany didn't have the resources to build such aircraft in large numbers. Japan didn't have the resources either.

The Do-335 used DB-603 engines which were an evolution of the DB-601 that were built under license in Japan. But the license built DB-601s proved to be unreliable in Japanese service and the Japanese did much better with radial designs.

Bill

So you assume too then that the story given by (I believe among others) Galland, when Hitler was shown the 262 he asked Messerschmidt if this plane can carry bombs... and he replied something like "in principle yes, but...." and Hitler said "this is my new fast bomber". Then bomb racks/sights etc. needed to be fitted, also the cell probably remoddeled etc. which delayed it quite "a bit". I believe I read even some statement by (Galland? Or Milch? Or ???)... that when he heard Hitler asked this he thought "I was begging in that moment that Messerschmidt would say no to that question"....[;)] Ofc this can also be only hearsay or made up - who knows.

Pics:



Hitler & M.



...."...perhaps Messerschmitt’s finest achievement was the beautiful Me 262 twin jet powered fighter with swept wings, a design years ahead of its time. The 262 saw combat at the end of the war but was never available in enough numbers to be anything but a nuisance to the air-forces ranged against Germany. Messerschmitt’s reputation as an aircraft designer is somewhat open to question. His early aircraft were all prone to failure, often with tragic loss of human life. Indeed it is hard to think of any other aircraft designer with such a record of disaster! It was only after 1933 with a new team of bright young engineers working for him that he had sustained success. Perhaps he should be best remembered as an aviation visionary and organiser. There is no doubt that he was always questing after aircraft that would be better in every way. His passion for producing the fastest or biggest aircraft was exasperating to many of the Nazi and Luftwaffe bureaucrats who wanted all efforts concentrated on existing designs.

See: http://ww2gravestone.com/people/messers ... mil-willy/


Article in German: "Hitler ruined his fasted wonder weapon himself":

http://www.welt.de/kultur/history/artic ... elbst.html

Quotes from article: "Only in Nov of 1944 Speer could convince Hitler to produce the plane only as air superiority fighter. "This was high time" judged proganda minister Goebbels. 5 days later he noted "Our Me262 is not very beloved by the enemy airforces" But Hitler still was not convinced, Goebbels learned in Dec 44. "I am absolutly shocked as the Führer told me he has no high hopes for this plane. He believes the high speed itself will not be decivise in air to air combat" (but as a bomber?)

[Alpha77]

My personal opinion is a) drop Me109 asap as it is also a more dangerous plane for untrained pilots and misses some features of 190.... b) build the FW190 instead in higher numbers (Messerschmidt reputation and standing with high nazis prevented that) c) In fact build Me262 as bomber destroyer asap but d) give it at least another propeller plane as backup perhaps the named Do335 the 190D and/or Ta152. Ofc as soon you note you lose air superiority over your own territory you build as many fighters as possible and train the pilots to fly them but do not build/research light bombers or phantasy projects like the "America bomber" or a 4 eng plane as dive bomber (HE177) which is prone to failure cause of the dive requirement and strange engine installation. A bit OT sorry.

Ex German pilot who flew Ta152 in the "last days" tells of planes:

Willi Reschke tells of his experience as a pilot in JG 301/ JG 302. He compares the Focke Wulf 190 and Messerschmitt Bf 109 with the WW2-Fighter Mustang P-51. (subtitle)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74nsR6zjXPY



ON topic: Cool drawings of "Hayate":

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h ... UQrQMIazAY

[wdolson]

Galland and many others believed Hitler's interference delayed the Me-262 and it would have if the engine program didn't run into even bigger problems. Some production was diverted to Me-262 bombers at the start, but they never would have been able to build all that many anyway, there were too many other problems. The early Jumo engines had something like a 10-20 hour life before they had to be completely stripped down and rebuilt. The Germans didn't have the metallurgy to make reliable compressor blades and the problem wasn't solved until after the war by the US and UK.

The He-177's biggest problem was fitting the paired DB engines required eliminating the firewall. Because of the engine arrangement, grease and oil would collect between the cylinder banks which could catch fire if the engine got too hot. With no firewall, an engine fire quickly ate the wing off. Heinkel devised the He-277 which had four separate engines in a conventional arrangement, but Hitler wouldn't hear of it. The He-277 would have been much more reliable and probably about the same performance.

Bill

[JocMeister]

Helmut is that you?

[Bullwinkle58]

del

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Galland and many others believed Hitler's interference delayed the Me-262 and it would have if the engine program didn't run into even bigger problems. Some production was diverted to Me-262 bombers at the start, but they never would have been able to build all that many anyway, there were too many other problems. The early Jumo engines had something like a 10-20 hour life before they had to be completely stripped down and rebuilt. The Germans didn't have the metallurgy to make reliable compressor blades and the problem wasn't solved until after the war by the US and UK.

Sure Hitler was not the ONLY reason, but he was in the top5 reasons I believe Also ofc the Allied bombing would have an effect. Like in the case of Japan when complete engine programs were shut down by B29s. But led in one case to a positive result - the Ki100 Tonyl was a result of bombing (orig. engine factory bombed)

[rustysi]

The early Jumo engines had something like a 10-20 hour life

Major problem and limitation!!!

overheating the engine - which was what happens when you bury a 2,100 hp air-cooled radial in the rear fuselage.

I know they weren't 2100hp, but we 'buried' air cooled radials in the rear of tanks w/o too much trouble.

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

overheating the engine - which was what happens when you bury a 2,100 hp air-cooled radial in the rear fuselage.

I know they weren't 2100hp, but we 'buried' air cooled radials in the rear of tanks w/o too much trouble.

The tank engines were single-row radials making less than 500 hp. Cooling was a simpler problem with a single-row of cylinders, using a large ducted fan. Adding another row of cylinders and another 1000+ hp presented problems that required refinement of cowling shapes to direct more air to the rear row, as well as cuffs near the base of the propeller or a fan at the front of the engine (such as in the FW-190).

Higher horsepower also requires additional attention to cooling, which is why Porsche designed liquid-cooled heads in the '70s for the 900 hp flat-six used in the racing 935.

[Erkki]

While I think its a great fallacy to think that not being a current or former military aviator somehow completely disqualifies a person from being able to judge the in game air to air part, I do think that besides stuff revolving around 4E gunners the game does pretty good job. P-47 most definitely was in most ways superior to Zero, Ki-43 Ki-44 and Ki-61. Even 20 mph sustainable level speed advantage through altitudes was pretty decisive on its own in the world wars, as demonstrated by the Luftwaffe too, again and again.

At least WitPAE is more accurate than Eagle Day to Bombing The Reich.

Problems with the current system include it not being very transparent or giving much feedback besides the combat replay and results. The player is left guessing too much to my liking. Same goes for naval battles, and those tend to be much more decisive. Air battles are also probably a bit bloodier than in real life, probably because the way formations always find each other and never avoid initial contact and because too easy to both mass air force and keep it flying daily. But those would be just minor complaints.

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

The tank engines were single-row radials making less than 500 hp.

Not necessarily. The Meteor used in a number of later British vehicles was a de-rated Merlin V12.

Lazy link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Meteor

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: Reg

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

The tank engines were single-row radials making less than 500 hp.

Not necessarily. The Meteor used in a number of later British vehicles was a de-rated Merlin V12.

Lazy link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Meteor

Oops, sorry for the confusion. I was responding to rustysi's comment about the air-cooled radial engines used in some Allied tanks. From what I could find in my quick research on tanks (I'm a little unfamiliar with vehicles that have more than four wheels and weigh more than 4,000 lbs), as the power requirements increased for tanks, designers turned to liquid-cooled engines. Maybe someone else knows -- were air-cooled radials were used in any tanks designed after 1944?

[Revthought]

I prefer the feast of Alvis--which is about drinking and revenge--but I will take the day off and wish you a good weekend as well!

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

Oops, sorry for the confusion. I was responding to rustysi's comment about the air-cooled radial engines used in some Allied tanks. From what I could find in my quick research on tanks (I'm a little unfamiliar with vehicles that have more than four wheels and weigh more than 4,000 lbs), as the power requirements increased for tanks, designers turned to liquid-cooled engines. Maybe someone else knows -- were air-cooled radials were used in any tanks designed after 1944?

Using radials in tanks also required big air intakes for cooling and a high profile for the diameter of the engine in the engine compartment. Experience in the war showed that tanks with the lowest possible profile were a good thing. This required a liquid cooled engine.

Bill

[poodlebrain]

ORIGINAL: Marshall

I disagree, plenty of examples from the Japanese point, when experienced pilots encountered US planes, and shot them down.
The Franks and George where very good planes, the problem for the Japanese where the number of experienced pilots left.

In game results almost always favor the allied side.
The game is scripted to be favorable to the allied cause after 1943.
before mid 1943 the Japanese had the advantage, up to end 1942.
After that it declines and the results reflect that.

But then, reproducing air combat in a algorithm is never going to be accurate.
I think the game did well, but could be a little more balanced in the results after 1943.
more on pilot experience and less on speed and dive bonus.

Historically the Japanese ran out of trained pilots. For this game any competent Japanese player will produce many more pilots than Japan did historically. Isn't it reasonable for the Japanese in game to have the same difficulty training pilots as they had historically? Given the increased numbers it should be more difficult as the expanded training programs would have required lower qualifications for entry than historic if drawing from the same manpower pool.