4 player E-mail: AAR

[warspite1]

The Militia seems to be the only choice.

[Mayhemizer_slith]

Germany uses Ju52 to reorganize MECH near Paris.

Turn ends on a 1.

I'm sending file to Allies because of US entry rolls. Germany puts their both markers to offence.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer


Turn ends on a 1.

warspite1

[X(]

[warspite1]

Well last night those results were pretty tough to take. In the cold light of day they appear even worse....

Over the last couple of impulses we finally got a break with the weather (albeit in practical terms too late as the defence was gone) but then the land throws, the naval throw failures and the turn end... just incredible.

Ho hum. Onwards and upwards. The end of turn may take a while - lots to do and even more to think about as we enter the new year.

[warspite1]

warspite1 and Orm review the weekend's events around the campfire, where they spontaneously break out into an appropriate tune that, sadly, fails to lift their broken spirits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA

Release that inner hippy

[peskpesk]

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Unortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Ortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

warspite1

Well I'm certainly not precious about any of my tactics - if I was I wouldn't do AAR's. So with that in mind, two questions please:

a) What was "strange" about it?
b) Are you suggesting that with the weather, turn length and compromised CW options through the loss of Gort as they have been, things would be different with a less "strange" set up?

Keen to understand. Many thanks.

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Unortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

warspite1

Well I'm certainly not precious about any of my tactics - if I was I wouldn't do AAR's. So with that in mind, two questions please:

a) What was "strange" about it?
b) Are you suggesting that with the weather, turn length and compromised CW options through the loss of Gort as they have been, things would be different with a less "strange" set up?

Keen to understand. Many thanks.

B) Some what different. More options for the Allies.
A) Slow Garrisons at the German border , empty hexes for reserves units , mobile units at the Belgian border, cost clear for CW units. "Standard" ex

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Unortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

warspite1

Well I'm certainly not precious about any of my tactics - if I was I wouldn't do AAR's. So with that in mind, two questions please:

a) What was "strange" about it?
b) Are you suggesting that with the weather, turn length and compromised CW options through the loss of Gort as they have been, things would be different with a less "strange" set up?

Keen to understand. Many thanks.

B) Some what different. More options for the Allies.
A) Slow Garrison at the German border , empty hexes for reserves units , mobile units at the Belgian border, cost clear for CW units. "Standard" ex

I think this setup has to few units on the Italian border.

[Jagdtiger14]

I wish there was a way for the author of this thread to eliminate some of the funny ha ha stuff over time...with all that stuff in there it makes it tedious to go back and look at important stuff.

Probably my opinions are not welcomed, but I cant help myself:

peskpesk is absolutely correct. I cant see what is below the counters facing, but here are some of my basic observations at set up:

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons.
2. Arty in Maginot hex???
3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels. With that movement allowance, you can do it even if the weather turns bad.

Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies. The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air). As you had it, you had the surprise points on the initial roll to decline combat...with Gort out there, that would have been the wise thing to do...fighting out there invited disaster, and it happened.

The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn.

[Protagoras]

The French setup confused me too. I am no expert by FAR but I also thought it overdeployed against the Italians and did not allow fast movers to support Belgium. That and abyssal weather rolls doomed the defense.

[Jagdtiger14]

I think this setup has to few units on the Italian border.

What are the Italians going to do? The war is in the north, the Italians have slow going through Alpine passes and terrain, and then what?...outflank the Germans in Lyons and Vichy? (by that time the Germans have already advanced to Paris...go after Marseilles? (the French fleet need not be based there forever)

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Well as a outsider the game is exciting one. Unortodox weather and dice rolls have put the Axis in the driving seat for sure, help by the strange French setup. But then I know of games where Gibraltar held out against 10 * 30-50% chance to take the hex!!!! So its not over yeat

warspite1

Well I'm certainly not precious about any of my tactics - if I was I wouldn't do AAR's. So with that in mind, two questions please:

a) What was "strange" about it?
b) Are you suggesting that with the weather, turn length and compromised CW options through the loss of Gort as they have been, things would be different with a less "strange" set up?

Keen to understand. Many thanks.

B) Some what different. More options for the Allies.
A) Slow Garrisons at the German border , empty hexes for reserves units , mobile units at the Belgian border, cost clear for CW units. "Standard" ex

warspite1

Thanks for the input peskpesk.

I would comment as follows:

1. There was no harm with the cruiser squadron where it was as they were sailing first Allied impulse anyway - that said they could have been placed further west.

2. Interestingly, another Grognard on the development forums has always maintained that fast units should be placed in the Maginot line as these can then head west when things get hot - whereas GARR are stuck and lost.

3. I cannot recall (and I cannot see what other units you have in France apart from the top ones), but from memory I don't think anything but a 4 speed was going to get to the river in Rain, although can see that a couple of units could have reached Brussels (with Belgians and British on the flank).

4. But its an interesting set up you've highlighted - with one exception. Even with hindsight, even knowing what can happen, I would never, ever set up like that in the Alps. Essentially, even if the Germans are stalled in the North, this set-up gives Italy a freebie in the south. That of course potentially unhinges any good work achieved in the north - and no, this decision has nothing to do with the French Fleet.

[Mayhemizer_slith]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

I think this setup has to few units on the Italian border.

What are the Italians going to do? The war is in the north, the Italians have slow going through Alpine passes and terrain, and then what?...outflank the Germans in Lyons and Vichy? (by that time the Germans have already advanced to Paris...go after Marseilles? (the French fleet need not be based there forever)

Germany asked Italians to tie up French units in south and avoid any losses.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Probably my opinions are not welcomed:
I don't see why?

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons.
I disagree for the reasons mentioned above
2. Arty in Maginot hex???
Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there!
3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels.
The wisdom of this I can agree with.

Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies.
There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one.
The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air).
That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ.

The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn.
I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next.

warspite1

Responses in red.

[peskpesk]

Soon we will know the Axis master plan with good probability: if they install a Vichy government the likelihood that they go for Gibraltar and Sealion/late Barbarossa are slim, but the threat of Barbararossa is increased. But in this game the normal strategy options are increased due to the good Axis success.

[Jagdtiger14]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons.
I disagree for the reasons mentioned above The next time you play the Allies, try it. You might be surprised.
2. Arty in Maginot hex???
Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there!See above. Too many units vs the Italians causes these sorts of problems. The 4-1 GAR should be there.
3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels.
The wisdom of this I can agree with.

Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies.
There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one.The blunder with the Polish was in not getting the surprise...notice I didn't even mention that (I was giving the Allies a break on that one).
The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air).
That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ.I'm saying the Germans would not have taken their air out, but Gort, et al can also go into a lower box with fighter protection besides the fleet protection. It was the Allies that won the initial die roll. The Allies were hungry to get at the German units poised for invasion. If I had taken over the Allied decision making at that point I would have declined combat, and that is not at all 20/20 hindsight. Landing Gort (plus) safely is far more important than stopping an invasion. If I sail an HQ into a sea area, they are landing THAT impulse. If the Allies had fighter protection, plus maybe a bomber as well this might have played out differently. I have no problem with the Allies trying to stop the invasion...but don't do both...wait on Gort...too much combat potential. Too much movement and concern in Poland...stack Lodz and Warsaw and just let it be. Get your pilots and what ever else...don't let Poland take away from the main focal point. I normally have Gort and Wavell in France and max out the commitment.

The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn.
I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next. Examples: CW should have moved out of Antwerp and westward as the French line was retreating. CW would have held the northern two hexes of the Allied line. The Maginot east of Metz should have been abandoned sooner with two units in Metz. I don't like flipping both HQ's for re-orging French units...the re-orging HQ could be put into a hex adjacent to the Belgian border prior to help stop the Germans from exploiting through the line after attack. I would rather have had the obvious hex to be attacked with one unit in it and another unit behind to block exploitation. It didn't seem to me that the French were getting units up north where they were needed quickly enough (starting off with more mass north rather than south would alleviate that problem). How many French units outside of France made it into France?

warspite1

Responses in red. Responses in blue. I know what ever I write here will be looked at as 20/20 hindsight, but I'm just going with the concepts and playing style my board game group goes with, and one of our group is on the development group.

1. Too many units facing the Italians! You only need three (one of those three could even be a RES that need not be re-orged in Lyons. I disagree for the reasons mentioned above 2. Arty in Maginot hex??? Well the French aren't endowed with tons of spare units. I did not want to give up the Maginot Line as a freebie and needed something in there! 3. Most importantly, you need to have the 4 mover INF's, the 5 mover MOT, and INF div in Lille and SE of Lille getting ready to move into Brussels. The wisdom of this I can agree with. Gort: as I recall, that whole scenario was a huge blunder by the Allies. There was a blunder in having the Polish in the North Sea - however since none of us knew it was a blunder I think the Allies can be given a break on that one. The Allies should have waited with Gort, et al. Hunt down the German CA (w/INF div). Once that is accomplished or the Germans have already invaded with the div....THEN send Gort, et al with lots of protection (sea and air). That I think is just talking with hindsight and is totally impractical. Remember the Allies a) wanted to stop the invasion of Rotterdam and b) do not know what type of impulse they may be forced into next (they do not have the initiative at this stage of the war and against a decent player their moves are reactionary). Getting the British (including the army) into the North Sea on the first Allied impulse is standard stuff. There was nothing wrong with that - the dice throws of 1 (Axis) and 10 (Allied) was. You say they should have waited but after the invasion of Rotterdam who says the Germans would have taken their aircraft out of the sea area? If the British had sailed with Gort in impulse two you still must assume Gort lands that impulse (not necessarily possible depending on Poland or if it is still unclear whether a landing in Belgium or France is needed) - or he can be attacked anyway. If the Germans can sail a CA and later a BC, alone into the North Sea and not lose them while the British get two TRS taken out - then frankly there is nothing that the Allies can do about that whatever tactics they employ. The set up of Belgium was not optimal either. As the impulses went on, the Allies didn't do much to mitigate the luck of weather and long turn. I can understand the first part of this comment. The second part is just meaningless without some examples. The point has been made re the French set up and a couple of subsequent decisions that could have been done differently. But as for not then doing much to mitigate for the long turn and the weather as the game went on - I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe the Allies could have done next.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

I wish there was a way for the author of this thread to eliminate some of the funny ha ha stuff over time...with all that stuff in there it makes it tedious to go back and look at important stuff.

Probably my opinions are not welcomed, but I cant help myself:

Your opinions, comments and thoughts are very welcome. [:)] Thank you for taking the time and effort for posting them. [&o]

And you are right that it might get tedious to go back and look for important stuff. But, as far as I know, we can not eliminate posts. And the funny stuff do make the effort to maintain the AAR thread, well, more fun. Not sure how to solve this one.

Long strategic, and tactical, discussions might cluster this thread even more. So could this be moved to our, separate Axis respective Allies threads? Or maybe even yet another thread?

I do not want to censor this discussion. Just thinking it might be wise to relocate it. Or not. It is your call. I am just along for the fun of the journey. [:D]

[brian brian]

I like to defend the Alps with four units - the MTN in Nice, 4 pt INF to the north, inf division along the Alpine hexsides, CAV near the Swiss border.

Then bring the Syrian garrison to Nice on first impulse, though this risks a surprise port strike on it.

Italy's best chance to crack the Alps is on the surprise impulse with doubled air and HQ support from Balbo (risks 'Magic 14'). Nice is also vulnerable to shore bombardment. But if they get the first hex, the ooze begins and that eventually becomes serious.

But if the Italian set-up or DOW leads them in other directions, the CAV can move north, the Alpine hexsides can be uncovered, and the INF from Syria can rail north. Local MIL can handle the area best from turn 2 onwards, releasing the Infantry division and the other INF to the north as well.

[brian brian]

The key to defending Belgium is fast units that can enter Brussels in the rain. Let REServes cover the two Maginot cities.

After that it is imperative to keep two stacks of three units in the clear hexes in Belgium, each with anti-tank assets. Those are tough for the Germans to crack, but the other hexes don't allow a breakthrough, there is the Meuse river, etc. If the Germans DOW Belgium in 1939, abandon the Maginot immediately.

After Belgium keep the anti-tank guns stacked with two units in the hex most desired by the Germans, never take them as a loss, pick for the Shatter unit if necessary. Never place them with only one other unit - they are the most valuable French units.

In a non-France First game, a loan from the CW on turn two can build the third French AT/AA if not drawn at set-up - very handy in spring of 40.