Insanely difficult as Axis?

[DeriKuk]

If there's a flaw in the game, it is the insane TACTICAL (in a strategic game) advantage that the Axis enjoy THROUGHOUT the game. These are the true Aryan Supermen of Nazi propaganda. The result: Moscow invariably falls in late 1942; about the same time that Cairo goes down. This results in an Axis win around that time.

I've been tinkering with Axis MPP reductions (-10% at the start; -20% when Barbarossa commences). It looks better, but the Ubermenschen still kick posteriors.

There is a lot of scope for more historical subtlety in the game model; and much of it can be tied to the game's economic model. As the population gets drafted into the military (e.g. at the start of Barbarossa), the German economy should take a severe MPP hit. Slave labour may compensate for this, but only partially. Also, if casualties mount beyond a certain level in the short term, tactical proficiency of the affected units should take a significant hit - only to recover after a turn or two without casualties. As the game stands, a green MPP is as experienced as a veteran MPP.

The model is still too crude, but it can be improved . . . perhaps in the next release?

[mavraamides]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: vaalen
Thanks,Jim. That is really good to know, as I am about to start a game as the Allies.

No problem, but it looks like my plan was not sufficient. The Germans landed even more troops (seems to be a second Africa Korps with 2 experience stars for the units, ouch) and they are crushing my lines. I got creative and thought I had time to build more elaborate forts (more than two hex sides) due to the fact I had three armies in theater, bad move. I'm falling back to the few forts I managed to complete, but the Germans are killing one or two units a turn now so looks grim.

I posted a screen shot in this thread (post #18) back when I thought I was in good shape. The Oasis is now gone, both inf corps and the tank are dead and the southern HQ is fleeing into the open desert 1 hex at a time to try and survive. All three armies were hit and are now running back to the forts, though I don't know if I will have time to reinforce them.

tm.asp?m=4189394

I had been pounding the Italian HQ on the coast, but the Italian navy showed up. I am winning but most of my ships are in rough shape now.

Man things turned bad fast lol, I'm loving this game.

Jim

I started a new game as Allies and tried a few things some of which might seem a little gamey.
1) France. My first purchase is an engineer. Even though I know I'm going to get one later, I want to start on fortifications around Paris ASAP and when I have 2 of them I'll just be twice as fast. No research at all, build as many armies and corps as possible and use the rest for reinforcements. Keep med navy in med except for subs and destroyers.

2) UK. Build engineer right away. Then Infantry Weapons and Anti-Sub. Send engineer to Egypt ASAP. Send half of navy to med. This is the somewhat gamey part: Send the BEF to the South of France to defend against Italy instead of the more historical north vs. Germans. When they get pushed back to the point of being in danger, evacuate into the med and send them directly to Egypt. This way you have your most veteran, teched up troops in Egypt as early as possible including a second HQ while the French navy is still around to help protect them in transport. This saves 2-3 turns from the normal (at least for me) evacuation first to England and then later to Africa not to mention saving me from having to pay twice for transport.

3) Russia. Ditto Engineer. AFTER researching Infantry Weapons. I used to place my armies 2-3 hexes off the border. As German's advanced, I kept withdrawing them to about that distance. This minimized the ability of the Germans to do the attack, swap, attack, swap, attack, etc move because they first had to close to contact. I still do this after German invasion but I have them start right on the border. Why? Because when Germany first attacks, Russia get's a boatload of valuable troops (fighters, bombers, HQ's, mechs, etc.) right on the border. If my main line is 3 hexes back the Germans devour these before they have a chance to retreat. By placing my troops on the front line, these units get deployed BEHIND the front where they are much safer from that initial onslaught. My front line get's ravaged but these more expensive units largely survive and can retreat, reinforce and upgrade saving me massive MPP's. Plus, these front line troops when destroyed can be cheaply rebuilt (they show up with * in the production screen) while it seems that I don't get that same benefit from destroyed units that get created by script at invasion time. Not sure if it's supposed to be that way but I'm seeing that.

[DaBoost]

My advise is to just keep the AI on it's toes by mounting small scale attacks on multiple fronts. Seems like the AI is way too keen to pull off too many forces off the front lines. Works even better as allies. Game breakingly so.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot
3) Russia.

For me in Russia I created a sort of line of units in each city along the line from Riga to Minsk to Kiev with the armies and corps that start on map. I then spent the first 400 points that build up on inf tech so inf tech 2 completes shortly after Barbarossa begins (maybe 3 turns into war I think).

After that big investment I then spend everything on building out the garrison pool. These units act as cheap speed bumps that can stall an advance every time it comes to a city. Destroyed garrisons can come back in 2 turns for cheap 20-25 to build em), so you can constantly be throwing up blocking forces in every city or river along a rail line.

I then focus on nothing but armies while being sure to build all destroyed garrisons first. By the end of 41 I had the entire army pool done, most garrisons on map and was building into the corps pools.

I am finding that the notion of trying to keep a front line is not going to be a big part of this game. Fights will focus along rail lines near cities as supply is scarce in open country and it's far too expensive to ever build enough HQ's to bring supplies into the steppes via HQ chains.

So great strategy game, but not a good WWII sim.

Jim

[Goodmongo]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


I am finding that the notion of trying to keep a front line is not going to be a big part of this game. Fights will focus along rail lines near cities as supply is scarce in open country and it's far too expensive to ever build enough HQ's to bring supplies into the steppes via HQ chains.

So great strategy game, but not a good WWII sim.

Jim

This is exactly what WW2 in Russia was all about. Study any operational doctrince fromt he German army and you will see the rail lines were the defacto avenues of attack.

[mavraamides]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

After that big investment I then spend everything on building out the garrison pool. These units act as cheap speed bumps that can stall an advance every time it comes to a city. Destroyed garrisons can come back in 2 turns for cheap 20-25 to build em), so you can constantly be throwing up blocking forces in every city or river along a rail line.

Great tip on garrisons thanks! I thought of them as pointless because they are so weak but you make a great point that they slow up advances and essentially protect your more expensive units as Germans waste time and attacks on them. Fortunately, I still have time to use this tip as France is still holding on.

[DeriKuk]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

After that big investment I then spend everything on building out the garrison pool. These units act as cheap speed bumps that can stall an advance every time it comes to a city. Destroyed garrisons can come back in 2 turns for cheap 20-25 to build em), so you can constantly be throwing up blocking forces in every city or river along a rail line.

I've tried this . . . TWICE! Research infantry weapons, build speed bumps (garrisons and corps), line them up, keep rebuilding them in addition to some armies as they are destroyed; AND by the end of 1942 the Krauts and their Super-Axis buddies are in possession of the Crimea, Stalingrad, Leningrad, and well east of Moscow. Result: Game Over! What do you expect from Ubermenschen with god-like tactics?

Edit: I forgot to mention that they hardly slow down in winter and the rasputitsa.

[Hartmann]

ORIGINAL: hjalmar99

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

After that big investment I then spend everything on building out the garrison pool. These units act as cheap speed bumps that can stall an advance every time it comes to a city. Destroyed garrisons can come back in 2 turns for cheap 20-25 to build em), so you can constantly be throwing up blocking forces in every city or river along a rail line.

I've tried this . . . TWICE! Research infantry weapons, build speed bumps (garrisons and corps), line them up, keep rebuilding them in addition to some armies as they are destroyed; AND by the end of 1942 the Krauts and their Super-Axis buddies are in possession of the Crimea, Stalingrad, Leningrad, and well east of Moscow. Result: Game Over! What do you expect from Ubermenschen with god-like tactics?

Edit: I forgot to mention that they hardly slow down in winter and the rasputitsa.

My experiences are completely different from what you describe. I played UK/US twice,leaving Poland, France and USSR AI controlled. In both games, the Germans were stopped by the Russians in 1942. They made it near Moscow in the North, but only to about Rostov in the South. That was against the AI mind you - if I would have played the Russians myself, they would not have gotten even that far.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

ORIGINAL: hjalmar99

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

After that big investment I then spend everything on building out the garrison pool. These units act as cheap speed bumps that can stall an advance every time it comes to a city. Destroyed garrisons can come back in 2 turns for cheap 20-25 to build em), so you can constantly be throwing up blocking forces in every city or river along a rail line.

I've tried this . . . TWICE! Research infantry weapons, build speed bumps (garrisons and corps), line them up, keep rebuilding them in addition to some armies as they are destroyed; AND by the end of 1942 the Krauts and their Super-Axis buddies are in possession of the Crimea, Stalingrad, Leningrad, and well east of Moscow. Result: Game Over! What do you expect from Ubermenschen with god-like tactics?

Edit: I forgot to mention that they hardly slow down in winter and the rasputitsa.

My experiences are completely different from what you describe. I played UK/US twice,leaving Poland, France and USSR AI controlled. In both games, the Germans were stopped by the Russians in 1942. They made it near Moscow in the North, but only to about Rostov in the South. That was against the AI mind you - if I would have played the Russians myself, they would not have gotten even that far.

The Russians absolutely wrecked the Germans when I played them. Germans got to Riga but never took it, took but advanced no further than Dneproposk, never made Smolensk and by summer 42 the whole Axis was getting rolled. The Russians have so many guys and so much MPP it is crazy to me. Yes the level 3 tanks suck but there are not enough of them. If anything seems Uber strong it is the German tactical bombers that kill way way too many strength points.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot
Great tip on garrisons thanks! I thought of them as pointless because they are so weak but you make a great point that they slow up advances and essentially protect your more expensive units as Germans waste time and attacks on them. Fortunately, I still have time to use this tip as France is still holding on.

No problem, I also find if you flank an army in a city with one or two garrisons it can add a turn or two before the enemy can whittle down that army and seriously threaten capture as so many soak off attacks get wasted on the garrisons. And if you have more garrisons due to appear on map in the production pipeline you may be able to immediately replace destroyed ones if the Germans fail to occupy the flank hexes.

It also trains up the defending armies and after a turn or two I rail them out with one or two stars of experience so I can build them up with elite replacements in the rear.

Using this strategy by the end of 41 the Germans had not taken Pskov nor the city across the lake north of there yet, Smolensk has 5 experienced armies now defending it and Dnepropetrovsk didn't fall till December 41. I still hold the Crimea, though it hasn't been seriously attacked yet and panzers only recently headed there so it remains to be seen if it can hold out.

1942 may prove to be brutal as hjalmar99 suggests, but so far the Germans do not appear to be a serious threat to Russia. And this is a game with +1 experience and +20% MPP given to the axis.

Perhaps hjalmar99 is playing differently than I and allowing damaged armies to die rather than to try and pull them out for rebuilding. Perhaps the fact I have tech 2 inf and the Germans do not yet for some reason makes the difference.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: hjalmar99
(garrisons and corps), line them up, keep rebuilding them in addition to some armies as they are destroyed;

This is a mistake I think, forget building corps, only build the armies and save any extra MPP for the next turn to build armies instead of wasting it on a corp if you can't afford any more armies this turn.

This game is all about defense factors and corps will always have a point or two less defense than an army. That means armies hold out much better against repeated assaults and can withstand several turns of multiple attack waves before their morale drops and they should be railed out. A corp will probably die in the first turn the enemy can start the multiple attack wave shuffle, so only build them after the army pool is empty.

Jim

[DeriKuk]

I played UK/US twice, leaving Poland, France and USSR AI controlled. In both games, the Germans were stopped by the Russians in 1942. They made it near Moscow in the North, but only to about Rostov in the South. That was against the AI mind you - if I would have played the Russians myself, they would not have gotten even that far.

In my very first try, I left the USSR to the AI. The result? They went down even sooner . . . in May '42. When I play them, the Soviets last about five months longer.

It could be random events - combat modifiers and other "dice roll". I also found that Soviet fortifications are a joke; a waste of effort, because the panzers ripped through them like they were made of toilet tissue. I have Infantry Weapons 1 before Barbarossa, as well AA Defense 1, but the research additions to level 2 are very slow.

[mavraamides]

My gamey tactic of sending the BEF to the south of France and then directly to Africa once France was on the ropes seems to be working quite well.

In my previous games where placed them in northern France and then Dunkirked them back to the UK and then finally sent them to Egypt I was unable to make much progress against the Italians. So I sat back and turtled up in Africa I got ravaged by the Afrika Korps once they arrived.

In this game with the extra experienced and teched up UK units arriving in Africa 3-4 turns earlier I have pushed Italy out of the first two ports and am on my way to the third before German troops have even landed. Now it's possible they will push me back when they arrive but the fight will take place about 10-15 hexes west of where it had before giving me more time to shuttle more troops to the critical Alexandria area. Plus with those ports in my control it will be much easier to fend off the Italian navy and hit the German troops in transit where they are their most vulnerable.

Barbarossa hasn't happened yet but I have purchased all garrisons and have them in the cities closest to the border. Russia already at inf level 1 and on the way to 2. Will be interesting to see what happens when the Germans attack.

Right now my situation on both fronts looks infinitely better. Amazing what a difference a few tweaks can make in this game!

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: hjalmar99
They went down even sooner . . . in May '42. When I play them, the Soviets last about five months longer.

This is my front line as of the end of my move in June 42 (sorry about the image quality ridiculous 200k forum limit forced me to reduce it to 12%). I am still losing ground (Tula and Pskov just fell), but I don't see the Axis taking any major cities this year except perhaps Smolensk.

Jim

[Hartmann]

I sometimes wonder if for some people maybe scripts are not working properly or something - at least in my games the flow of the war seems rather balanced thus far. I still have to check some "alternate history" things, but if the war is fought along roughly historical lines the AI does surprisingly well on both sides - better than in any other turn based grand strategy WW2 game I've seen.

[DeriKuk]

In my current game it is late-1944. Three Soviet pockets are defending the approaches to the Urals. The Americans and the Turks are driving the Krauts out of Iran . . . with some help of the Soviet remnants. Soviets straggles are wandering around northern Finland and Norway , while barely hanging on in Archangelsk. The Soviet pocket in the Kuban has held out, and has sent its remaining corps to liberate the Crimea - with the exception of Sevastopol, held by Italian artillery. The Turks are "back" in the Balkans, helping the Brits in Greece. The Brits are also in Sicily, having just conquered Tunisia. The Allies landed in Brittany and Normandy, and are trying to link up with the three corps sideshow wandering around Spain and Portugal. There is a naval struggle off the coast of Norway. All fighters (except the Soviets, Italians and minors) are jets.

Weird or what? [:D]