The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[el lobo]

PHILIPPINE SEA Oct 5, 1943 Turn 668

This was a great strike. Sorry that I do not have better screen-shots but I was too excited to pay much attention to getting them.

I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. Some of the ship losses are from some naval action near Pagan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Daito Shoto at 92,77

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 113 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 50
B6N2 Jill x 17
D4Y3 Judy x 37

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 108

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed by flak
D4Y3 Judy: 9 destroyed, 10 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CVE Santee
CV Lexington II
CVE Long Island, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1
CVE Suwannee, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

-----------------------------
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 6 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 4 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Suwannee, heavy fires

---------------------------------------
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 12 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 10 destroyed, 8 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CA Wichita
CVE Santee, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CV Lexington II

-----------------------------------
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 11 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 15 destroyed, 7 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 3 destroyed by flak
D4Y3 Judy: 8 destroyed, 20 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 7 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Copahee, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Nassau, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CVE Altamaha, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CA Portland
CA San Francisco

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Daito Shoto at 92,79

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 39 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 51
B6N2 Jill x 24
D4Y3 Judy x 10

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8
F4F-4 Wildcat x 11
FM-1 Wildcat x 47
F6F-3 Hellcat x 166

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 13 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 7 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee
CA Pensacola
BB Mississippi, Torpedo hits 1

---------------------------------
Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y3 Judy: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CM Gouden Leeuw, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk

==================================

[Zecke]

very good my friend keep on learning.

[el lobo]

GAME OVER Oct 5, 1943 Turn 668

Rio has quit the game.

You can go to his AAR and probably get all of the legalese, he is an attorney after all, but the short of it is, in my opinion, SCLS.

His justification for quitting the game is a compromised CR. The fact is, I took down his Carriers fair and square. Most of you can see that from just what has been posted.

It was fun while it lasted and I hate to see the game end on this note.

Thanks to all who contributed to my AAR and thanks for all the great help. You guys are fantastic.

A special thanks to Rio and Captain Haggard for being such good and friendly opponents.

El Lobo

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
GAME OVER Oct 5, 1943 Turn 668

Rio has quit the game.

You can go to his AAR and probably get all of the legalese, he is an attorney after all, but the short of it is, in my opinion, SCLS.

His justification for quitting the game is a compromised CR. The fact is, I took down his Carriers fair and square. Most of you can see that from just what has been posted.

It was fun while it lasted and I hate to see the game end on this note.

Thanks to all who contributed to my AAR and thanks for all the great help. You guys are fantastic.

A special thanks to Rio and Captain Haggard for being such good and friendly opponents.

El Lobo

What do you mean? A compromised CR?

Did he just get this turn back and decide to quit on the spot? Any back and forth on this?

Usually players have a strong reaction to losing CVs immediately, but calm down after a day or two and start to accept what happened. If you do want to continue you might try him again and see.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert
...
Usually players have a strong reaction to losing CVs immediately, but calm down after a day or two and start to accept what happened. If you do want to continue you might try him again and see.

+1

As I read the combat Report, he only lost a few CVE's (3? maybe) and a couple of CV's are going to the body shop. Given allied repair, they will be out in 90 days or less.
OF course, his troops on Formosa and mainland china are toast (or they should be, you should be able to counter attack and annihilate them). But again, they can be rebuilt in ~6 months with another 3 months to train them up ...

Good strike, well executed!

[&o][&o][&o]

[adarbrauner]

Pax summarized it very effectively.

Just wanted to add, a very very good counter attack ,Sir!

[adarbrauner]

No update or any announcement of a quit in Rio's AAR until know...

[el lobo]

I want to publicly apologize to Rio for stating that his reason for quitting the game was SCLS. That was a knee-jerk reaction on my part.

It is a sad note that the game ended in the way that it did. I will try to explain further as more data is analyzed.

Again, thanks to all.

[el lobo]

obvert, it is somewhat complicated but I will try to explain as best I can with what I know at the moment, and yes, there was a lot of back-and-forth.

In a nut-shell, Rio and Capt. Haggard both received a very different CR.txt on the previous turn than my CR.txt. and their replay did not show any Carriers damaged or sunk. By received, in this instance, I mean generated by the game.

When they received the next turn from me, low and behold, here are a bunch of Carriers sunk and damaged.

So yes, their CR.txt and the replay were "corrupted," compromised.

Things get a little more complicated after that.

[el lobo]

Thanks Pax, I was pleased with the strike.

I also agree about the troops on Formosa and in China. I have/had four Divs, two Regiments, Arty, Armor, and more AA on the way to Formosa, about two days out for the first to arrive.

[el lobo]

Thanks adarbrauner.

The next turn would have been a good one also as it appears there are a lot of crippled ship out there.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

obvert, it is somewhat complicated but I will try to explain as best I can with what I know at the moment, and yes, there was a lot of back-and-forth.

In a nut-shell, Rio and Capt. Haggard both received a very different CR.txt on the previous turn than my CR.txt. and their replay did not show any Carriers damaged or sunk. By received, in this instance, I mean generated by the game.

When they received the next turn from me, low and behold, here are a bunch of Carriers sunk and damaged.

So yes, their CR.txt and the replay were "corrupted," compromised.

Things get a little more complicated after that.

So that sounds like the dreaded sync bug. However, there are SOP fixes to it ... no reason to quit the game. erik, George, Jeff, or any of a host of others can walk you through it.
I'm not as well versed on the mechanics as I don't play PBEM ... so I have to defer to one of them ...

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

So that sounds like the dreaded sync bug. However, there are SOP fixes to it ... no reason to quit the game. erik, George, Jeff, or any of a host of others can walk you through it.
I'm not as well versed on the mechanics as I don't play PBEM ... so I have to defer to one of them ...

The infamous Sync Bug. Thanks for putting a name to it. I have read about it of course but one can not appreciate the true "beauty" of it until they experience it themselves.

I don't think there is a mutual desire to walk through it right now but as a nerd/player's curiosity, I am interested if there are any ramifications on the game play itself.

I will go to Tech and do some research.

[Alfred]

Read this thread:
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4355560&mpage=1&key=synch&#4356139
 
There are several other threads on the sync bug issue.
 
The short end is:
 
1.  What Japan sees is always 100% correct.
 
2.  The combatreport.txt which the Japanese player should send to his opponent is always 100% correct.
 
3.  The incorrect info is seen only by the Allied player when he sees the combat resolution phase movie and the subsequent combatreport.txt file which is generated from the movie.
 
4.  The "bug" does not carry over to the next turn. It is the info generated by the Japanese combat resolution phase movie which is carried over to the next turn.
 
5.  The most common condition which will result in a sync bug is if both players are not using the exact same game version or there is some other discrepancy between the two installations.
 
6.  It is possible (but extremely rare) for consecutive turns to exhibit sync bugs but the cause of the succeeding synch bug appearance will be different from the cause of the preceding sync bug.
 
 
Bottom line is that the sync bug can be a cause of frustration for the Allied player (although sometimes he can get some valuable intel which otherwise would not have been available) but is never in itself a ground for surrender.  If an Allied player loses a carrier battle it is not due to the sync bug but to a combination of both his and his opponent's actions.  The lost carrier battle would have resulted even if there had been no sync bug.
 
Alfred

[el lobo]

Thank you Alfred.

Talk about synchronicity. I just moments ago posted the following in that thread only to come back here and find the answer to my question.

------------------------------------

Having my PBEM game just hit by a Sync Bug, I want to confirm what I think I understand from this and these excellent threads.

tm.asp?m=4295554

tm.asp?m=4207479

From what I understand, sync bugs affect the Allied combatreport.txt and the Allied replay, only.

Do they effect the in-game play mechanics? IE, do they affect the in-game turns themselves?

TIA.

[obvert]

Yeah, playing allies just always request the combat report be sent by the Japanese. I always read this first, then watch the replay for more detailed info. It's fine that way.

He has no reason to quit if it's a sync bug. It didn't change any outcomes as Alfred pointed out, and may actually have given him info he wouldn't have had otherwise. Think of it as a some temporary FOW.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Yeah, playing allies just always request the combat report be sent by the Japanese. I always read this first, then watch the replay for more detailed info. It's fine that way.

That is another tool that you experienced PBEM players take for granted probably having played through a sync bug or two previously.

For us, after 668 un-corrupted turns, it blindsided us out of the blue. I have read about others getting them and I know Rio has also. I will have to ask Hag if he has, but none of us had enough wherewithal to recognize the problem. It was not until Pax gave it a name that the dime dropped for me.

I hope that anyone new to PBEM and reading this will become more aware and put "sync bug" in their problem solving matrix.

The good news is that one out of 668 turns is not bad. The bad, irritating, and somewhat spooky news is, how does it know to hit on one of the most critical turns of a game? I think that witp had a sardonic programmer out there at one time.[:)]

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
The bad, irritating, and somewhat spooky news is, how does it know to hit on one of the most critical turns of a game? I think that witp had a sardonic programmer out there at one time.[/size][:)]

Sync bug most certainly have happenede before in your game. It's just that on non-critical turns you are not scrutinizing combat reports that much and the discrepancies of how many planes were damaged on regular raids or what TFs were spotted where go under radar. And since there is no carryover effects it goes unnoticed

[Alfred]

There is no single sync bug.  In classical WITP they reared their ugly heads quite frequently.  Most of the causes were tracked down and squashed for AE where its incidence is rather rare and noticed by the players even less often.  Lokasenna has a theory that carrier battles are more likely to trigger the incident but the range of variables which are involved in a carrier battle is so great that it is difficult to get the bug to reproduce consistently.  That makes it extremely difficult to fully eliminate the bug.
 
Alfred

[Yakface]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Read this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4355560&mpage=1&key=synch�

There are several other threads on the sync bug issue.

The short end is:

1.  What Japan sees is always 100% correct.

2.  The combatreport.txt which the Japanese player should send to his opponent is always 100% correct.

3.  The incorrect info is seen only by the Allied player when he sees the combat resolution phase movie and the subsequent combatreport.txt file which is generated from the movie.

4.  The "bug" does not carry over to the next turn. It is the info generated by the Japanese combat resolution phase movie which is carried over to the next turn.

5.  The most common condition which will result in a sync bug is if both players are not using the exact same game version or there is some other discrepancy between the two installations.

6.  It is possible (but extremely rare) for consecutive turns to exhibit sync bugs but the cause of the succeeding synch bug appearance will be different from the cause of the preceding sync bug.


Bottom line is that the sync bug can be a cause of frustration for the Allied player (although sometimes he can get some valuable intel which otherwise would not have been available) but is never in itself a ground for surrender.  If an Allied player loses a carrier battle it is not due to the sync bug but to a combination of both his and his opponent's actions.  The lost carrier battle would have resulted even if there had been no sync bug.

Alfred

I'm with Alfred on most of the above, there is a big 'however' though..........

I know of multiple ways, playing as Japan, to force the game to produce different outcomes of a turn. Bottom line is: the Japanese player (if he was a low down cheating rat and so chooses) has the control to effectively run and rerun the file sent by the Allied player until he is happy with the outcome.

In addition to this intentional desync manufacturing, very rarely the bug happens with no apparent cause and throws out (at Japans end) an anomalous result.

Given both of the above, Alfred's point 1 list doesn't really cover the situation. It would be better put as: what Japan sees is what is represented in the game file that he uses as the basis for the next turn.

The anomalous results, however they occurred, become the basis for the next turn (because whatever Japan sees is reflected in the subsequent game file), but neither the accidental nor intentional sync bug turn files should be considered 'correct'.

The solution: I run two installs of the game on separate machines which I patch to what ever version I am playing. If as the allies I see a replay that results in a different combatreport.txt than the one sent to me by Japan, then I rerun it on my other machine.

If the two turns on my machines are produce different movies and report files (and particularly if the replay I run on my second machine matches the Japanese combat report) then the anomaly was at my end and can basically be ignored.

If they are the same, then it is an statistical certainty that the results that Japan has seen and that have been used as the starting point for issuing Japan's orders for the next turn, are the anomalous ones. I just ask him to rerun the turn. It has happened once in my current game (Now in Sept 1942) and a rerun by Japan brought it back in line with what I had seen.