Saper (Axis) vs Tyrone (Soviet). (no Saper)

[tyronec]

T10.
Forgot to take screen prints at the start of the turn, end positions below.

Northern. Pushed back again on the Narva and the attack on Pskov begins.
Moscow area. The northern area of the line held OK, in front of Moscow lose 3 rows of hexes.
SWest. Retreating to Vononezh.
Southern. Trying to hold the line to delay the attack on Rostov. Could be risky if Axis have done HQBs.
Odessa. Being attacked, extract everything but the city garrison.

Air war. Using air interdiction didn't work too well and cost me 50 TACs for little result.
Totals for the turn: 55 (mostly fighters) for 418.
The Axis fighters have pulled back so my LBs are only getting one bombing run per turn.

Industry: Am on target for 200 HI and 300 AP as long as there are no further overruns. Having lost so many on T9 has not really made much difference as I wouldn't have had the rail capacity to get them out anyway and just different ones would have been lost.

[tyronec]

T11 after recon.
Northern. Pushed back in three hexes but not all followed up.
NWest. Pushed back one hex.
Western. Pushed back two hexes, just 20 miles to Moscow. One division cut off but can save it for one more turn.
Reserve. Not really followed up South of the Oka.
SWest. The infantry is following slowly.
Southern. Pushing up to my front line. I can only see 5 Armour units, one at the front and 4 heading towards the railway. So 10 missing, but perhaps some left last turn.
Odessa. Just the city hex left, held off one attack.

Air war. 23 for 49. Axis mostly lost to AA.

Thoughts for the turn.
Good turn for me, no units pocketed and no industry overrun.
Soviets won 17 defensive battles and lost 26 so some morale benefits.
Next turn September and will start to counter attack.
Northern. Will reinforce the Narva and around Pskov with a few more units.
Moscow area. The northern area is OK, will hold firm. In front of Moscow it is tricky, there is the Moskva river just behind the front line. If I leave the row of hexes in front of the river weak then anything forward of that can get pocketed and the river stops any counterattack. If I fill that row up with units then will have a lot of routs.
SWest. Will start entrenching along the Voronezh river.
Southern. Hoping that I have not missed some armoured units will try and hold the line.

So looks like 3 or so Pz corps are pulling back from the south, given that they are heading for the railhead my guess is they are going to Pskov, if not Moscow. There is no railway repair in Estonia so the Narva seems unlikely.
I think there is good grounds for not using too many armored divisions this far East during '41 under the latest patch because of the supply modifications.

Will swap an infantry division into Odessa to keep the garrison up to strength. Axis are attacking with 4 German divisions, I would usually expect to use 6 so may hold out for another turn or two..

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

So the way I understand this is that the Germans should not be able to take Moscow and if they are capable of taking Moscow there should be a patch. Is that what you are implying?

As for Chaos45's statement, I tend to agree with him a great many times myself. Even having to test things that I don't agree with then send a PM later to him stating he was correct :-}. But so far I see nothing that is drastic in this game that the Soviets don't have a chance, even if losing Moscow. Tyronec has played very well. But Saper has a habit of pulling out un-expected results turns 12-17

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

So the way I understand this is that the Germans should not be able to take Moscow and if they are capable of taking Moscow there should be a patch. Is that what you are implying?

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange. The long debated historical argument is that Guderian's orders to turn south to assist Kleist in taking out the Southwestern Front saved Moscow. This question isn't relevant in WiTE because that act plays itself out through the Lvov pocket on the first turn with the help of Guderian's PG2.

Tyronec has taken your formula for covering Leningrad and it will be instructive to see if its survival is the trade off. If it is, that's good enough. If it isn't, then I am questioning if the Axis player needs so much help in order to make their game enjoyable or even playable.

[tyronec]

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange.

In this game the Germans have given up a lot for their attack on Moscow, most of AGN.

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. So this is a bit ahead of historical but maybe that is no bad thing for play interest.

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad, at least that is my prediction but it could all fall apart if he manages to pull off a big strike somewhere.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS




I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

So the way I understand this is that the Germans should not be able to take Moscow and if they are capable of taking Moscow there should be a patch. Is that what you are implying?

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange. The long debated historical argument is that Guderian's orders to turn south to assist Kleist in taking out the Southwestern Front saved Moscow. This question isn't relevant in WiTE because that act plays itself out through the Lvov pocket on the first turn with the help of Guderian's PG2.

Tyronec has taken your formula for covering Leningrad and it will be instructive to see if its survival is the trade off. If it is, that's good enough. If it isn't, then I am questioning if the Axis player needs so much help in order to make their game enjoyable or even playable.

That is what I thought but wanted to make sure . Thank you M60

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange.

In this game the Germans have given up a lot for their attack on Moscow, most of AGN.

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. So this is a bit ahead of historical but maybe that is no bad thing for play interest.

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad, at least that is my prediction but it could all fall apart if he manages to pull off a big strike somewhere.

I concur with the assessment. Just be on the lookout because Sapper is notorious for game changers right up to the Blizzard

[Tomcat84]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. [...]

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad

Maybe I'm misreading but I'm a bit confused. You say as it stands axis can take Leningrad but then you say he's given up on Leningrad?

[tyronec]

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. [...]

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad


Maybe I'm misreading but I'm a bit confused. You say as it stands axis can take Leningrad but then you say he's given up on Leningrad?

Two different Axis strategies for '41.
If Axis go for Leningrad I think they can take it but will have to work hard to get Moscow.
In this game they will get Moscow in good time but I don't think they can take Leningrad.

[Tomcat84]

Ah you mean as WITE stands in general, not just this particular game? Got it now

[chaos45]

Germans still have 7 weeks to make things happen...then a couple weeks after mud....thats alot of weeks being already at the gates of moscow...just saying....I could be wrong but German CV on full attack is nearly unstoppable in 1941 and thats alot of weeks to try to stand in front of that CV with little room to give.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Germans still have 7 weeks to make things happen...then a couple weeks after mud....thats alot of weeks being already at the gates of moscow...just saying....I could be wrong but German CV on full attack is nearly unstoppable in 1941 and thats alot of weeks to try to stand in front of that CV with little room to give.

Moscow will fall is my prediction. The real question is can Leningrad and the south be saved.

[tyronec]

T11.
Have not retreated much in front of Moscow or Rostov, hope I won't be regretting it.
Air war: 62 for 600. Tried to do a couple of fighter sweeps but it cost me 120 planes for nothing, except perhaps a little German fighter fatigue.

[tyronec]

T12 after recon.
Northern. Have been pushed out of 3 hexes. Looks like 17th Army up from AGS.
NWest. A few limited attacks.
Western & Reserve. Pushed back to the gates of Moscow. 6 divisions cut off but not really pocketed, expect they will be next turn.
SWest. They are advancing slowly.
Southern. Just two attacks.
Odessa. Holds off the assault again. The port is being bombed.
Have my first two guards divisions.

Air war. 40 for 146.

Thoughts for the turn.
There are about 4 Panzer corps missing. The armour divisions in front of Moscow will be getting about 30% fuel per turn, however if these corps have been railed back and out again they could have done HQBs and be on 200% so present a major strike force. Can probably only rail about half of them each turn but my guess is that they will appear in front of Pskov soon. So will start building a reserve line in the woods.

Moscow area. PG4 have shifted a bit south and about 6 armoured divisions have pulled back so may be doing an HQB. Will abandon the salient south of Moscow, it looks ripe for being pocketed. Am also concerned that he may just be able to assault Moscow from the front.
Rostov area. Will counter attack to start to build up wins and experience.
Odessa. Looking good, will continue to swap out the weakest division.

[tyronec]

T12.
Do a few attacks, all of which win. Saper is has been careful to avoid giving me easy targets.
Have about three armies worth heading for Leningrad but the quality is poor.
Down south there doesn't seem to be much there, may be time to attack all out next turn.

Air war: 68 for 300, mixed types. Axis interdiction was ON costing him a few bombers and giving me some experience. Did a few fighter sweeps to get rid of the biplanes and build up experience. Begun building U2VS this turn.

[tyronec]

T13 After recon.
Northern. Pushed back at the Narva. Pskov line is broken and a Panzer corps comes through, only the GrossD is not on Red fuel so could have been worse. Pskov is isolated, will be pocketed next turn.
Am I allowed to quote myself, wrote that line about Pskov this morning and opened the move an hour ago.

NWest. Just a few push backs.
Moscow area. Up to the river south of Moscow. Seven divisions pocketed but the six that were isolated have been routed out. My Vehicle factories are done for but everything else is out of the capital.


SWest. They are advancing slowly.
Southern. It like the motorised division has pulled back. I can only see 9 German divisions in front of Stalino, 4 of them are stacked in the two towns.
Odessa. Beats off two attacks. The fort level is going down slowly.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
This is the old Sapper .

Yeah this is vintage Sapper. Always thinking outside the box, he's a handful.

[tyronec]

T13.
Leningrad. Get 4 new armies moved up for the defence.
Moscow. Will see if they go North, through the capital or South. Am weakest to the North.
Southern Front. Am attacking full out, threatening to flank Stalino from both sides and coming up from the Crimea to threaten the rail line. Not sure what Axis have behind the front line, will be interesting to see how Saper responds.

Air war. 25 for 150 LBs, plus another couple of hundred biplanes. Am getting about 40 Luftwaffe fighters a turn.

[tyronec]

T14 after recon.

Leningrad. The Narva is not attacked. Axis advance up to the river north of Pskov and cross the river to the NE. No more armour divisions but a few more infantry.

Moscow. Big push to the north, crossing MV canal which is bad news. Looks like one corps from AGS arrived this turn and did a lot of the damage.
Zukhov lets me down and they get across the Moskva to the south as well.

Southern Front. A reasonably solid line in front of Stalino, can count 13 German divisions. Not much sign anything defending in north of the Crimea. At least two motorised divisions returning to the front, nothing better that to see them counter marching.
Odessa has fallen, and the defenders retreated so are lost.

Air war. 122 for 170. Germans are suffering from a lack of fighters.

Thoughts for the turn.
Leningrad. The frontal assault looks manageable, will try and hold the river line for another turn. To the East of Pskov will pull back to the next river.

Moscow. Will reform my lines north of the city. Zukhov will attack where the Moskva has been crossed. Concerned in case there is a huge pocket formed around Moscow, will see how next turn develops. There is also the risk of them breaking out to the north. Looks like my last turn to get any Vehicle factories out of Moscow.

Rostov. Will do what attacks I can towards Stalino to build up wins and morale. Infantry from the Crimea and the cavalry advancing along the Azov coast will spread out to expand the front line.