Why Don't Bombers Fly More Raids

[GeneralDad]

I am puzzled as to why my bombers are not flying more raids. My 15th air force has over 800 bombers assigned to fly 12 strikes 3 times a week. I should get close to 36 strikes for the week but the best I can get is 17 for the whole week. Part of the zone is in bad weather, but there are plenty of applicable targets in the fair weather zone. I have adequate bombers and escorts to match my minimum aircraft required settings.

I am trying to attack Axis supply (rail yards), but when I laid on secondary targets the number of raids went down (to 3 total for the week), not up.

Frustration abounds. Six straight weeks of no-fly weather in Northern Europe. The Axis has sent so many units south to Italy that 7 of the 10 stacks facing me have triple digit defense factors. All of the rail yards south of Prato are red, but the Axis still has enough supply to maintain high cv's. So I need to attack something that will make a difference. I also need the planes to fly when ordered to to so.

Morale is good, fatigue is low. Why don't the planes fly their missions?

GeneralDad

[cfulbright]

I never mix primary and secondary targets. Better to set up separate AD's for each.

Cary

[GeneralDad]

Hi Cary,
Interesting thought. But my problem is that even with one target the bombers are not flying. The AD creation shows all the planes available and the whole box is green indicating full escort coverage. Still, no sorties fly for the 15th air force. Finally after 6 weeks of heavy snow in the north the weather cleared enough to fly. The result was a slaughter of the LW, over 670 planes lost. My losses were a little over 300. So my morale has improved after 6 straight turns of not flying in the north; but the problem of the 15th AF not flying is still there. I'm open for any ideas on how to get them to fly.

GeneralDad

[cfulbright]

You may have thought of these, but these are the reasons I usually find for bombing missions not flying:

1) Altitude too high
2) No targets of the type specified in the box
3) Planes set for day or night only in opposition to the daytime of the air directive
4) Loadouts that don’t include bombs or are set to auto
5) Range given the bomb load
6) TOE of airbase set to zero, so there is no fuel, ammo, or support at the airbase.

I never use Auto load outs. If you manually set the loadouts, you can see whether the assigned planes can participate or not.

Let me know if any of that helps.

Cary

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: GeneralDad

I am puzzled as to why my bombers are not flying more raids. My 15th air force has over 800 bombers assigned to fly 12 strikes 3 times a week. I should get close to 36 strikes for the week but the best I can get is 17 for the whole week. Part of the zone is in bad weather, but there are plenty of applicable targets in the fair weather zone. I have adequate bombers and escorts to match my minimum aircraft required settings.

edit: setting the minimum required can cause problems if a combination of the damage/repair routine and leadership rolls leave you a few short of what you have set (both factors being out of your immediate control. I tend not to use this as it adds a level of complexity that rarely matters with the Western Allies.

ORIGINAL: GeneralDadI am trying to attack Axis supply (rail yards), but when I laid on secondary targets the number of raids went down (to 3 total for the week), not up.

Frustration abounds. Six straight weeks of no-fly weather in Northern Europe. The Axis has sent so many units south to Italy that 7 of the 10 stacks facing me have triple digit defense factors. All of the rail yards south of Prato are red, but the Axis still has enough supply to maintain high cv's. So I need to attack something that will make a difference. I also need the planes to fly when ordered to to so.

Morale is good, fatigue is low. Why don't the planes fly their missions?

GeneralDad

Cary has given some good information but I'd also suggest checking and working through the event log - what happens is that planes damage and repair over the week leading to unexpected variations in what is available.

The other random element is the air commander air rating determines how many planes are likely to be added to a given raid. Now this can have some odd consequences. The obvious is a low rated commander (and, in WitE2 testing, playing the Soviets in 1941 is a full on immersion to this horror) may send only a few or even no planes on a mission. So you cry, a high rated commander is good?

Well ...

Yes and No. For almost everything the answer is yes but they can be too effective. In effect they overcommit to the opening raids = damage/repair cycle as above.

The answer lies in how much micro management you can stand. One option is to set the number of 'strikes' to ensure that say 100 planes go on each mission, that might help evenly spread out your effort. But the only sure way to avoid over-commitment is to manually create each raid and allocate the planes you want to take part. Now generally I find the auto-assign and large area AD model good enough but I will resort to more specific attack patterns when I want a particular outcome.

More generally in Italy - don't go over them, go around them. You don't have the tools of the Red Army in 1943/44 so if a position is too strong to take frontally there is little you can really do. But you do have naval control. Use your brigades, make a landing, reinforce by moving in 2 infantry divisions (or air transport paras). As long as its not opposed this is effective - every now and then its going to go very wrong when you suddenly find the Axis have accidently left a combat unit in the target hex. This will disrupt the AI's defensive lines - you'll pay a high price in losses as they will counterattack viciously and you'll be reliant on naval gunfire and the rules for bridgehead defense to cling on, but in the end the AI will pull back. Once things settle, repeat.

On the Med coast this will take you up to the Arno where the front will probably stall but on the Adriatic you can move by a series of steps actually into the Po valley. This also works PBEM, in fact is more effective PBEM as most axis players will (sensibly) try to run Italy with as a few units committed as possible.

Roger

[GeneralDad]

Hi Cary – here are some responses to your excellent points.

1) Altitude too high – Nope – I checked that and when altitude is too high the number of AC assigned goes to zero – I have hundreds of AC in the AD

2) No targets of the type specified in the box – The box is big, so there are many rail yards in it

3) Planes set for day or night only in opposition to the daytime of the air directive – Mission is day, setting is DN for all groups

4) Loadouts that don’t include bombs or are set to auto – This may be a problem for me, I have not manually set the bomb loads. What is best for rail yards and supplies? Small or big bombs?

5) Range given the bomb load – Should not be a problem because the AD shows the aircraft as available.

6) TOE of airbase set to zero, so there is no fuel, ammo, or support at the airbase. –The bases have been in operation a long time and have been well supplied when I checked. I can check again, but there is no reason for the bases to be in bad shape.

I will try setting the load outs and double check range.

Bearing in mind that I am playing the beta version and so not yet fixed bugs are an understandable possibility…

From the point of view of a beginner/intermediate player – assigning an AD – having the AD show the aircraft as available and the whole target box green – then having the planes not fly at all - this seems like a bug in the game from my perspective. The game is complex and requires a lot of management, so auto loadouts should at least have the missions fly so the beginner/intermediate player is not overwhelmed with detailed management.

I am going to replay the air phase and see if I can get the 15th air force bombers to fly. This will be done with detailed manual loadouts as you suggest since that seems like the most likely issue. Every other air command is flying and doing damage, so the problem seems confined to the 15th air force.

Thanks much,
GeneralDad

[cfulbright]

GeneralDad,

I'm happy to look at your save game if you attach it in a Zip file to this thread.

As for what load to use on Railyards, I recommend 1,000lb bombs over 500lb bombs.

Cary

[GeneralDad]

Hi Cary (and all),

Apparently I don't know how to upload a zip file to the forum - so if someone could please point me to the instructions for uploading the file - I would appreciate it.

GeneralDad

[GeneralDad]

Hi loki100,

All food for thought. Using units as small as brigades seems risky to me, especially with the huge number of Axis units now in Italy. Also, I am now late enough that I will need consider when to withdraw some amphibs for D-Day. Because I did not try an air landing on Sardinia when Italy changed sides I also got pushed into an invasion there – which went well but I still need to secure the island.

How far north of the MLR do you land the brigades?

BTW, where is Arno? I did not find it on the map.

How fast do brigades prep for an invasion? I am used to needing 2 months to prepare a division sized assault. I might be able to give it a try and still do a Southern France invasion per history.

GeneralDad

[cfulbright]

GeneralDad,

Once you start writing your comment, click on the "Click here to upload!" below and to the left of the text box:

[GeneralDad]

Hi Cary,

When I try that button I get an error message that only picture types are supported. I had tried it earlier, but here it is again with the error added. Sorry if I am dense.

GeneralDad

[cfulbright]

GeneralDad,

I've never seen that before. I'll send you my email address and you can email me the file.

Cary

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: GeneralDad

Hi loki100,

All food for thought. Using units as small as brigades seems risky to me, especially with the huge number of Axis units now in Italy. Also, I am now late enough that I will need consider when to withdraw some amphibs for D-Day. Because I did not try an air landing on Sardinia when Italy changed sides I also got pushed into an invasion there – which went well but I still need to secure the island.

How far north of the MLR do you land the brigades?

BTW, where is Arno? I did not find it on the map.

How fast do brigades prep for an invasion? I am used to needing 2 months to prepare a division sized assault. I might be able to give it a try and still do a Southern France invasion per history.

GeneralDad

You can get a brigade up to about 55% in 4 turns in a small port, 3 in a larger one. If its a contested landing (ie you get unlucky) its doomed in any case so you may as well do the landing once its ready. On the turn of the landing it has to fend for itself (but the TF+beach-head rules really help) but you can then add 2 new units (divisions are obv best) which makes it safe against almost any counter-attack.

So its a gamble but a reasonable one. Even if the axis bring there full power to its destruction they have badly weakened their front line opening up a chance there.

I tend for about 3-4 hexes behind the front. The idea is if it holds and disrupts the defensive line I can get the main force into contact over a couple of turns.

Even with just 2 TF in the Med you can put together a steady sequence of these - at some stage you need to stop to prepare for the S France invasion but then at some stage you need to pull a lot out of Italy to support the main battles in France in any case.

The Arno is the river running from Florence (Firenze) to the coast. Even if you breach this - and its a good defensive line the Germans will just fall back into the mountains. Its not just the river but it has rough terrain and city hexes that they can turn into strongpoints.

So reaching that really ends the drive up the western coast of Italy but you can still open up their defences on the east (using the invasion sequence).

[GeneralDad]

I think I found part of the problem - the bombers may think the rail yards are destroyed so maybe that is why they don't fly. I was able to get 9 raids by increasing the range into areas I had not hit before. With P38 J/L based forward I still had escorts. This pushed LW losses over 700 for the phase without increasing mine much. I'd like more raids - closer to the 24 that I laid on - but at least I got 9 rather than zero.

Also I have a problem of why my 8th AF strategic recon over the Ruhr is not flying either. I checked range, escorts, altitude, and cameras. So this is another puzzle.

I have attached a screen shot of my situation for the Feb 5th turn - you can see my problem/challenge in Italy.

I may try secondary targets for the 15th AF - see if I get more raids.

Thanks for all your comments,
GeneralDad
You can reach me at 'Vettejeep365 at gmail dot com' for zip file exchanges.

[GeneralDad]

Hi All,

I finally got everyone to fly by setting all missions to 'auto' for planes required.

After 6 weeks rest due to poor weather in northern Europe I was afraid that the LW had regenerated a lot. Concerned about stiff LW fighter resistance I have tried to set up the ADs for this turn to cause maximum LW air losses, plus the bombing damage. LW losses were ~800 aircraft, I lost around ~350; so that part has worked out. Strike numbers seem low but sortie numbers are high. I need to dig into what that means for bombing damage.

If you want to see game saves, just shoot me a message.

Thanks for all your help here,
GeneralDad