Participative thread - about carriers & carrier ops IRL

[wegman58]

Sound powered phones hadn't changed much from WW II to 1987 (last time I was shipboard). Not sure how old they were in WW II time. But they work.

[Fishbed]

Thank you @Korvar & all the gentlemen for the extra info and research

Stupid question about colors. On a picture such as the one taken in USS Lexington II's CIC I have hard time figuring who's wearing what.



If I am to believe this reference from Osprey, I suppose officers are wearing khakis and others blue outfits. If I take the example of the gentleman on the left, am I right to assume that he is wearing a light blue shirt and dark blue trousers? Or is on-duty CIC personnel, considering the heat & all, allowed to dress more loosely with white shirts for instance?

Thanks for your lights! [&o]

... and I nearly forgot: HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

[MakeeLearn]

the dress code on a ship, during ww2, would have been very relaxed. It would also be subject to what clothes were available on the ship.

"Bull" Halsey got rid of ties as part of the "uniform of the day".


"Capt. Ralph E. Watson, had a plaque lettered and posted in the front hall:

Complete with black tie

You do look terrific,

But take it off here:

This is still South Pacific! "




"Capt. Harold E. Stassen, who succeeded Captain Moulton as flag secretary:

It was in 1943, I think, that the Navy Department introduced gray uniforms for officers and chief petty officers; anyhow, that's when they first appeared in the South Pacific. Most of us disliked them on sight. In fact, the Admiral always referred to them as "bus‑driver suits." Their unpopularity in our theater was so general that Washington issued a special bulletin, pointedly stating that grays had been authorized as an alternate uniform for the entire Navy, including every theater of the war.

When the Admiral saw this bulletin, he hitched up his khaki trousers, pulled down the sleeves of his khaki shirt, and remarked to no one in particular, "The Department is absolutely right. Any Navy uniform should apply to the whole Navy, and officers and chiefs in my command are wholly at liberty to wear the damn things — if, that is, they are so lacking in naval courtesy and have such limited intelligence as to prefer dressing differently from the commander of the force."

We stuck to our khakis."

[Fishbed]

Hello Makee,

My graphist's sketches came back, we went full khaki. I don't know how you feel about it, but I am rather satisfied of the result I s'ppose [;)]

Thanks for the help!

[Fishbed]

Another question for you gentlemen.

I am looking for a reference where one would be able to see clearly (preferably in color, but up this point B&W will do too) something that look remotely like the sort of planning map a flag officer would use to keep track of everything. I am looking for a depiction of the plots & the colors in use.

There is this view taken from a rather famous (by now?) CG sequence made about Santa Cruz that shows this sort of representation (here for search quadrants and the IJN fleet, in Adm.Kinkaid flagplot) but I am not sure how authentic it feels (if it does at all) or if it was just the artist's imagination.
The Battle of Santa Cruz CG by Tochibayashi Masaru - Youtube

Besides, as you know already maybe the USN tends to use "Orange" as its own denominator for OPFOR whatever the identity of the enemy (the same way BLUFOR is always blue) - it is true that in the Rainbow nomenclature War Plan Orange was aimed at Japan, but that was a Joint-Staff thing certainly independent from specific USN jargon.
In that regard, I suppose that plots and marks representing the enemy as such in use in the US Navy would actually be orange, or orange-reddish. Not sure how that translates though chromatically speaking. Anyone saw anything in its own experience, references or in a museum that would give a good idea of how orange is actually "orange" in the USN? [8D]

Everybody big thanks! [&o]

[Fishbed]

Small update

Although I am not sure I'll be always finding what I am looking for, I suppose that some discoveries are worth noting - if I come across interesting stuff in my research I will gladly share it here, I know there are always some amateurs who will enjoy that [;)]

Here are Admiral Ghormley's (COMSOPAC until relieved by Halsey in October 1942) papers and notes - some of them are connected to Watchtower, or more exactly Pestilence - which was originally the name for the Tulagi and then the Tulagi/Guadalcanal part of Watchtower before the whole Ndeni thing got thrown under the bus by timing and tough resistance at Tulagi.

Some very interesting pieces and handwriting/drawings here and there about the Guadalcanal campaign (that is, until Bull Halsey's arrival). A very rare into the work methods of a WW2 US Admiral. Feels like someone playing a beta version of WitP:AE... except he did that in real. Enjoy:
https://digital.lib.ecu.edu/search.aspx?q=local_id:1153*

Bonus btw: besides the maps & the photos. Admiral Ghormley left us with two quasi full ONI Ship & Planes identification booklets from his time at Pearl Harbor in 1943. A very nice copyright-free source there again (just a pity it cannot be downloaded all at once...)

[Fishbed]

Hello everyone,

Looking for a reliable source (or two maybe - one USN and one IJN) about elevator cycle times for carrier classes, especially pre-war ones. The data is hard to come by, it is usually not part of data sheets (although elevator dimensions usually are). Reliable info on IJN ships is most precious, considering the need to make sure this data takes into account the double hangar deck configuration of the mainstay carriers. Still, regarding the IJN I am pretty sure I'll find some answers re-opening Shattered Sword or asking IJN buffs. Not so much for the USN though...

For the USN so far, I have the estimate for Yorktown class (that is, the same as Essex class) of 45sec, although Mark Stille states in one Osprey publication that these are times that include plane ops onto and out of the platform for the Essex - not having comparable data for the Yorktown means there could be a discrepancy there. Lexington class is often rated slower (which would be understandable considering the generation gap), but there again finding accurate info is hard, even in Friedman. Same thing for Wasp's deck edge elevator, that certainly had an operational cycle time different from the normal shaft models.

If anyone has anything to contribute on the topic, I thank him or or her in advance [&o]

[BBfanboy]

I think there is a scene in Tora, Tora, Tora where the protagonist takes the aircraft elevator from flight deck level to hangar deck. You could get the timing from that, although I am not sure what RL carrier was used (it was a deck edge elevator, not the centerline version used on the Yorktown and Lexington CVs.

[Fishbed]

Scenes filmed onboard were probably made on USS Yorktown in its latest modernization state - in that regard the Fighting Lady movie already gives much insight in the speed of operations. The deck-edge elevator on Wasp was very barebone, and I am pretty sure that its operations were slower than aboard Essex ships. Because of the later war abundance of footage, Essex ships sure are rather well documented - but no such luck with pre-war carriers. Footage we have only give us glimpses of the elevator ops, and that would be hard to assess (not to mention the occasional cut or time compression here and there). There must be some hard date somewhere... [:(]

[rustysi]

You could possibly check out the speeds of the elevators at 'Radio City Music Hall' in NYC. Its said the Navy inspected these when building their carriers as they were of the most advanced elevator technology at the time, and they're still in use today.[8D]

[sPzAbt. 502]

Wiki says Unruy class elevators took 19 seconds from the lower hangar deck, it also says they where designed to have planes spotted on the deck.

[Fishbed]

Thx for the suggestions and the data boys [;)]

[traskott]

I see the map of Ghormley and check it with the map of the WitPAE...and Fidjis are a bit more closer to Guadalcanal in his map than in game...

[Fishbed]

Well these larger-scope maps are all classic Mercator. WitP's map being completely theater-wide they did all they could to reflect actual geography with a custom projection, while taking into account the hex grid AND trying to keep the landmasses untwisted. Not an easy task indeed... [;)]

Regarding naval charts of the era more generally, they certainly were lacking on a few other aspects as well, relying sometimes on expeditions going as far as late 19th century. Here's an example I am coming across on actual early 1940s USHO Navy charts - the kind of stuff SOPAC went to war with on August 1942 [:o] [:D]

[traskott]

Thanks !! [:)]

[Fishbed]

We've been doing some work during the last two weeks. We've been focusing on the deck management system, with all the challenges it involves. Putting 90 airframes on a Yorktown class CV on 2 decks + in 2 sets of spare (suspended and disassembled) takes a lot of wit. Makes you admire the Ouija crew and the Air Boss' job, as any AI designed for this task will require long hours of debugging.

Even with 3 elevators and 10 outriggers, we're talking permanent SNAFU whenever air ops have to occur, whether it's for spotting or landing business. Not to mention planes of different dimensions and all, with folding wings (F4F4, TBD, TBF...) or not (F4F3, SBD...). I am quite sure Herwin would have loved the challenge - too bad he isn't around anymore to lend a hand, Rest in Peace...

Anyway. Here are a few snapshots of what is being done. Hopefully, we're getting a bit closer to the first flight everyday it seems!







First GIF has the wartime deck paint, GIF 2 & 3 are taken aboard a pre-war MS1 paintjob. I'll love to share the Yorktown girls when I'll have the opportunity, if there's any amateur out there...

Cheers!

[Buckrock]

From the Savo Thread.....responding here instead....

ORIGINAL: Fishbed
@Buckrock yes unfortunately, even sources like Norman Friedman's book only have scarce info here and there. If you refer to reports such as Enterprise's damage report at Santa Cruz and thereafter, or Lexington during the Lae Salamaua raids (I remember in both occasions that a single elevator was out of order) it was a fair idea. I didn't look at them for that sort of info, maybe I should.

On the IJN side, the late Mark Peattie, in Sunburst, gives a value of a 40 sec for elevator cycles aboard the Shokaku class (including loading and unloading, and knowing Japanese ships have deeper shafts because of the 2-hangar decks configuration) but goes on saying Akagi and Kaga were slower... Really a tough cookie

According to Dickson's Warship International (V 14, No 1) article, she had the 40 sec elevator cycle you stated, could go from lower hanger to flight deck in 15 sec and had an elevator max velocity of 50 meters per minute. I assume you've also seen the lift speeds for the Kaga's three elevators in Shattered Sword?

Shattered Sword also mentions the Lex and Sara's slow elevator speeds. What references I saw when I was looking around on your question a month ago normally stated 2fps (or 37 meters per minute) as the fwd elevator speed for the Lexington Class but there was also an archived article from Naval Aviation News (May 1962) quoting the design team as having selected a fwd elevator speed of only 1 foot per second. If true, I could see what the criticisms were about regarding the Lex and Sara's deck cycle times.[:)]

[Fishbed]

Aye, found the actual reference to Dickson's article in Warship International. Took the liberty to browse Warship International and get my hands on very interesting stuff (thank you my University, for allowing me access to Jstor [&o]). I was actually reading that just a few minutes ago, great synchro [:D]. I'll check again with Shattered Sword, but I should really start to use post-its, otherwise I'll just miss that sort of info. Great thanks for pointing this out.

Besides, it is funny that you mention the 2fps speed for the Lexingtons, because it is exactly what I just found out in another Warship International (CV-2 "Lex" and CV-3 "Sara", by Richard M. Anderson and Arthur D. Baker N4/77:291). The 1fps figure could also be, I suppose, the result of heavier loads later on during the war - the article does mention the weight of a 6-ton load for a 2fps figure, and says that planes, by 1944, had "outstripped the capabilities of her lifts. Break-downs became frequent despite almost continual tinkering and strengthening: the elevators were just too overworked". It is true in theory that a Helldiver together with deck hands manipulating it (a good additional 800-1000kg?) would go a bit over this limit if it got somewhat refueled in the hangar deck - but knowing arming is mostly done on the flight deck, this explanation is a bit strange. At any rate I don't quite see how a Hellcat would go over this 6t limit. An Avenger much more so, but then it is strange to say that limitations started to appear only by 1944...

[Buckrock]

For Kaga, Shattered Sword (page 545) has her elevator speeds (fwd to aft) as 35, 40 and 44 meters per minute.

As for Sara's lift speed in relation to late-war heavy loads, I didn't see anything myself that explained whether the 2fps was at full design load or some standard lesser weight. I do know her wartime records mentioned the upgrading of her lift machinery during a '44 refit (IIRC, after she returned from the Indian Ocean operations with the RN) to bring her elevator speed up to "fleet standards" in operating the now heavier aircraft of the day. This is not to be confused with the refit she received in '45 that effectively gave her the same elevator size as the Essex Class carriers. So the '44 refit could suggest she was struggling to lift some of the latest aircraft types.

In regards to the Naval Aviation News article, it also mentioned the smaller aft elevator for the Lexington Class as designed (with help from the Otis Elevator Company) was to have a speed of 2fps compared to the 1fps of the fwd. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think somewhere between design and construction, it might have been decided why not have both fwd and aft elevators with that same 2fps speed.

In regards to the wartime USN operational reports I had also looked at, there was at least an interesting comment for the Lae-Salamaua Raid that noted the operation had to cater for the Lex's slower cycle time. Whether that was a dig at her slower elevator speed or at the carrying limitations of her smaller aft elevator or both, it didn't specify.

I don't have easy access to them but the historical BuShips reports are probably where all the USN elevator data can be found.

[Fishbed]

AFAIK Lexington had one non-operational elevator at the time of the Lae-Salamaua raid. I would have to check what caused the malfunction (and which one it was). Slower cycle time was already a thing that could be easily seen at Coral Sea in May when compared side by side with Yorktown (especially during the strike against CarDiv 5), but accessing only one of its elevator against the three of Yorktown in March certainly didn't help a bit. Sara ended up fighting with a single elevator at the end of the war, but by then she was a night-fighter platform and hardly a full-fledge strike carrier indeed.

Anyway, I can see the stuff you are referring to regarding the naval aviation news 1962 issue ( https://www.history.navy.mil/content/da ... /car-3.pdf ), it is regrettable that the entry dedicated to the Yorktowns doesn't benefit from the same amount of details... Such a daunting quest for such a vital info that I would have thought to be paramount to any carrier specs!

Do you have an idea where these BuShips reports might be found, if they were ever scanned at all? If not I suppose I can approximate the speed of the Yorktown's elevator a bit, nobody's gonna die... But it is still very frustrating.