OT - WWII quiz

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The answer is always ... 42

I'll dig out the name of the book claiming this total, and ponder the various scenarios, for you all soon.

Merry Christmas everyone.

warspite1

Its Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

[4personalbusiness]

Right, and in Star Trek it's 47. Maybe they can compromise and go with 44.5, which in our world means 45. heheh.

Obviously, my fellow PBEM players are nowhere to be found so I have some time on my hands...just staring at the boards....

[brian brian]

So it is turning out that the claim of 42 total attempts is from a book by Jack Platt, recently released on Kindle.

Some of these attempts are more items like a group of Germans started kicking the idea around but were reported to the Gestapo and killed before anyone actually got close to Hitler. But many others were robust plots and Hitler escaped by luck alone, such as happen-stance changes of his schedule before a bomb went off. One of those was due to rain changing his travel plans from air to train, unexpectedly for the plotters who blew up the site where he was speaking just 30 minutes after his departure, for example.

Another one was quite spectacular - imagine Hitler being killed when his podium exploded at one of the Nuremberg rallies! (For that one the courier for the explosives was arrested crossing into Germany from Austria).

The magazine I purchased I absolutely can not suggest being worth anyone's time. They took four scenarios and then spend just 2 or 3 paragraphs on the possible What-Ifs of Hitler dying at that point. Poorly written with lots of repetitiveness, full of spelling "mistakes" hidden by auto-correct these days, such as the word "quite" being printed instead of "quit", or similar. And the basic conclusion lamely reached is always "we can never be sure....", which is partly because it would be impossible to figure out with Nazi would win the likely internal power struggle within The Party were Hitler to have been killed.

One solid conclusion is that The Holocaust would likely never have happened.

A surprising conclusion, barely mentioned in this poor magazine, for attempts before June, 1941 (or August, 1939) is ... What Would Stalin Do? Just broaching that question leads down an infinitely branching rabbit hole quite quickly.

One of the attempts was late in the year 1939 - after the war had already started.With that one it does seem likely that the German Army would have ended up in charge and brought the war to a negotiated conclusion, for a time. But for attempts after the Casablanca Conference in the mid-war years, by that point the death of Hitler would likely have made no difference as the Allies had already put on a united front of unconditional surrender and clearly after the atrocities in Russia nothing else would have been possible.

[paulderynck]

The one where the bomb on his Fokker Tri-motor failed to explode - something to do with an altitude setting? - along with some of the others, gives one an eerie feeling that time travelers cannot change the past. The universe will somehow prevent their attempts to do so.

[brian brian]

OK, so here is an old old thread, but a good one.

I was about to bump the books thread. I am still working on the Rick Atkinson trilogy, about finished with "The Day of Battle" re: Italy, my 2nd read of that one. Loaned out the 1st one the other day, have to start looking for a copy of the 3rd one now.

I am now wanting to read a history of the air war, and more particularly in the Mediterranean if possible. So much of such history focuses on the strategic bombing campaigns; I am more interested in the air supremacy struggle (Fighters), and Luftwaffe and Italian capabilities in the Med until by 1943 or so it was all a moot point, with massive Allied dominance of all things in the air. Any suggestions appreciated.


Meanwhile, before I loaned out the Atkinson "Army at Dawn" about Torch > Tunisia, I re-read some key passages about the initial Allied entry into Tunisia - where the US Army encountered the Wehrmacht for the first time in WWII.

And specifically, the interesting results of the US Army's first fight with their Stuart light tanks. (They had already been in combat in Libya with British units). This was still several months before Kasserine, in December, 1942.

In the first encounter between German troops and a couple platoons of Stuarts, what were the main Axis losses?

In the 2nd such encounter (the next day), same question - what were the main Axis losses?

I'm not looking for exact KIA/wounded/missing/captured totals of soldiers in those 2 questions. I will tell you fine folks the answers soon enough.

[brian brian]

As the US Army entered routine combat with the Germans in Tunisia, they discovered their handling of armor was sometimes too dashing and cavalry like, sometimes giving the Germans easy victories with anti-tank gun ambushes, etc.

Also, the Stuart was proving to be perhaps too "light" of a tank already.

Nevertheless, the first time an advancing force of American Stuarts made contact with the enemy, they devastated that German unit - a Luftwaffe unit. The Stuarts had charged so far forward so quickly that they overran an active Luftwaffe airfield and demolished some 21 or 22 Me109s and Stukas.

It was right around this time that the Allies also had the city of Tunis in range of their binoculars, somewhat like the way the Germans could see the spires of the Kremlin for one day in theirs a year before. The Allies were soon pushed well back from Tunis for a good five more months.

The day after the Stuarts overran an airfield, the same unit encountered a force of Mk IV Panzers. The results of this battle amazed me more than the lucky find of the airfield. In terms of tank losses, it was an equal affair, if I recall the book section correctly. 6 tanks each - 6 Stuarts to 6 Mk IVs. How did this happen? The Stuarts ambushed a column of Mk IVs from behind - poor recon/intell by the Germans I guess. The American unit was soon routed by superior German forces as the American lines were pushed back some 20 mile or more.

[Orm]

Thank you, brian, for sharing.

[Courtenay]

US tank battalions had two companies of Shermans and one of Stuarts until the end of the war. I can't remember ever seeing any reports of what those Stuarts did in France or Italy. Every battle that I have seen reported always involved Shermans fighting. Where were the Stuarts? Anyone have any anecdotes that they can report?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

US tank battalions had two companies of Shermans and one of Stuarts until the end of the war. I can't remember ever seeing any reports of what those Stuarts did in France or Italy. Every battle that I have seen reported always involved Shermans fighting. Where were the Stuarts? Anyone have any anecdotes that they can report?

warspite1

Not my specialist subject, but I thought the Stuarts were light tanks and used pretty much in the scouting role or possible infantry support in need. As such while they would see combat, it would probably be brief as they would withdraw from tank to tank combat given their relatively light armour and hitting power.

[sPzAbt653]

Where were the Stuarts? Anyone have any anecdotes that they can report?

The US 1942 Field Manual states that Light Tanks would provide the main strike force and that Medium Tanks would support them. Against strong defenses, the Medium Tanks were to lead the advance.
As you can expect, this did not work well in North Afrika against the Germans. Therefore, the Field Manual for 1943 was rewritten and the tanks were given multiple roles, most of which were in support of Infantry Formations [for the Independent Battalions] or Exploitation [for the Armored Divisions].
[see The Infantry's Armor, by Harry Yeide]

From what I have read the Stuarts were used for whatever they could be used for safely. For example, in an area where there was no immediate threat from enemy tanks or anti-tank guns, the Stuarts could be very useful. Today we might not think this to be true, but even in Europe at the end of the war there were still a handful of Independent Light Tank Battalions in use. For anecdotes, I think it was Jock Campbell who wrote a book about his experiences with the 'Honey' in the Libyan Desert. Not a US Bn story, but a Stuart story [:)]

[Ubercat]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

US tank battalions had two companies of Shermans and one of Stuarts until the end of the war. I can't remember ever seeing any reports of what those Stuarts did in France or Italy. Every battle that I have seen reported always involved Shermans fighting. Where were the Stuarts? Anyone have any anecdotes that they can report?

I recall a story I read somewhere about a Stuart that took out two King Tigers...

The Stuart was behind enemy lines and trying to get to safety. They approached a village and decided to blow through as fast as possible in the hopes of being gone before any Germans in it could react. They turned a corner and saw the two KT's getting refueled. The crews ran for their tanks and the Stuart shot the fuel truck that was between them. The resulting explosion set the KT's on fire and caused some damage to their crews as well!

I wish I could remember where I read that.

[paulderynck]

Sergeant Fury and the Howling Commandos?

[Ubercat]

I think Sgt Fury in a Stuart would have penetrated the KT's front armor from 1000 meters.

[paulderynck]

Depends on if he threw the shell overhand or underhand.

[Neilster]

SGT Rock and Easy Company wouldn't even have needed a tank to take those die-hard Nazis down [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster