Chtr 7 Roadwarrior (GHC) vs Gundam1985 (SHC) 1,000,000 men in reserve and still on the offensive.

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RoadWarrior
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T25

Post by RoadWarrior »

OOB

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RoadWarrior
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RE: T25

Post by RoadWarrior »

Losses

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RoadWarrior
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RE: T25

Post by RoadWarrior »

Northern front

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RE: T25

Post by RoadWarrior »

South

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RoadWarrior
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T26

Post by RoadWarrior »

SHC 16 battles with 5 held results. GHC attacked 2 times and win both times. Losses were 33k GHC to 48K SHC

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Q-Ball
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RE: T26

Post by Q-Ball »

3.6 mil Soviets on the map is critically low for this time.....should be close to 5 mil.

1 mil in Reserves, not sure what they are doing.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: T26

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

3.6 mil Soviets on the map is critically low for this time.....should be close to 5 mil.

1 mil in Reserves, not sure what they are doing.



Still a 4.6 million man army and Roadwarrior even has 3,000,000 Russian Casualties. That is still a huge Red Army even if 1,000,000 is in reserve and it is going to do nothing but grow over the next few months. Remember 500,000 of those in Reserve came from the Nov 25th bonus they get on that turn. The Soviets will get another 200,000 men in May of 42. So by that time the Soviet Army should be BIG when the Germans TRY to go on the offensive in the spring. Add another Assault Hq for the Soviets and subtract one for the Germans in 42 and the Soviets are almost on par with the Germans.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Q-Ball
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RE: T26

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

3.6 mil Soviets on the map is critically low for this time.....should be close to 5 mil.

1 mil in Reserves, not sure what they are doing.



Still a 4.6 million man army and Roadwarrior even has 3,000,000 Russian Casualties. That is still a huge Red Army even if 1,000,000 is in reserve and it is going to do nothing but grow over the next few months. Remember 500,000 of those in Reserve came from the Nov 25th bonus they get on that turn. The Soviets will get another 200,000 men in May of 42. So by that time the Soviet Army should be BIG when the Germans TRY to go on the offensive in the spring. Add another Assault Hq for the Soviets and subtract one for the Germans in 42 and the Soviets are almost on par with the Germans.

I do think the Soviets are too strong into 1942 at the moment; a few more games need to get there to confirm, but no argument

The Manpower drops don't immediately count in reserves though; only if they get added to units in the Reserves. If they are in Manpower pool they won't show up in any OOB numbers.

In my game vs. RW, I've had fewer losses and keep the Reserves empty, but I'm already close to 5.5 mil in December
RoadWarrior
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RE: T26

Post by RoadWarrior »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

3.6 mil Soviets on the map is critically low for this time.....should be close to 5 mil.

1 mil in Reserves, not sure what they are doing.



Still a 4.6 million man army and Roadwarrior even has 3,000,000 Russian Casualties. That is still a huge Red Army even if 1,000,000 is in reserve and it is going to do nothing but grow over the next few months. Remember 500,000 of those in Reserve came from the Nov 25th bonus they get on that turn. The Soviets will get another 200,000 men in May of 42. So by that time the Soviet Army should be BIG when the Germans TRY to go on the offensive in the spring. Add another Assault Hq for the Soviets and subtract one for the Germans in 42 and the Soviets are almost on par with the Germans.

I do think the Soviets are too strong into 1942 at the moment; a few more games need to get there to confirm, but no argument

The Manpower drops don't immediately count in reserves though; only if they get added to units in the Reserves. If they are in Manpower pool they won't show up in any OOB numbers.

In my game vs. RW, I've had fewer losses and keep the Reserves empty, but I'm already close to 5.5 mil in December

To be honest you made some mistakes and should have a larger army than u do, but I also made a few.

I have enjoyed our summer walk in Russia. We both get an A+ for that
gundam1985
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RE: T26

Post by gundam1985 »

The Soviet army is huge and waiting for the 1942.
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T29

Post by RoadWarrior »

Turn 27
SHC 2 battles with 0 held results. GHC attacked 0 times.
Turn 28
SHC 7 battles with 1 held results. GHC attacked 2 times with 1 held results.
Turn 29
SHC 18 battles with 3 held results, losses were 50k. GHC 2 battles with 2 held results, losses were 30k


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RoadWarrior
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RE: T26

Post by RoadWarrior »

ORIGINAL: gundam1985

The Soviet army is huge and waiting for the 1942.

I think you understand the logistics system far better then the others.

Your army is far more mobile than M60 and others. A fat bloated army is slow and can only grind.

Once the special rule set of 41 is over, papering over the short coming of the logistics system you dump the reserves back into your Army which will lead to a 42 SHC steam roller I am guessing.
Completely unhistorical, but we did not write the code we all just play with what we were given.

The game about logistics not the size of the ones army.
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loki100
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RE: T26

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior
ORIGINAL: gundam1985

The Soviet army is huge and waiting for the 1942.

I think you understand the logistics system far better then the others.

Your army is far more mobile than M60 and others. A fat bloated army is slow and can only grind.

Once the special rule set of 41 is over, papering over the short coming of the logistics system you dump the reserves back into your Army which will lead to a 42 SHC steam roller I am guessing.
Completely unhistorical, but we did not write the code we all just play with what we were given.

The game about logistics not the size of the ones army.

you keep on mentioning this 'special rule set', what do you mean? The modelling of the real problems the Germans had with using civilian trucks (of many makes) or integrating their train stock into the Soviet system?
AlbertN
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RE: T26

Post by AlbertN »

If I well understand the issue is that hardly Germans can achieve historical results as of now - which should be the 'Average' of the game. How many Axis players get to Orel, Rostov, Kursk etcetera.
And how many can also keep a good portion of these through the coming winter?

Gundam is a good player though - he beated my Germans hands down by turn 10, with his Soviets having stalled at dead point the whole Axis advance north of the Dnepr to Leningrad. (By stalled I mean having turned it into a 0-1 hex trench war slog) - So he'll give you some good hell.
gundam1985
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RE: T26

Post by gundam1985 »

In fact, I'm good at playing German than Soviet.
gundam1985
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RE: T26

Post by gundam1985 »

Here is the T29 OOB.
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RoadWarrior
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T30

Post by RoadWarrior »

Turn 30
SHC 28 battles with 9 held results, losses were 55k. GHC 3 battles with 2 held result, losses were 34k


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T30

Post by RoadWarrior »

South

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RE: T26

Post by RoadWarrior »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior
ORIGINAL: gundam1985

The Soviet army is huge and waiting for the 1942.

I think you understand the logistics system far better then the others.

Your army is far more mobile than M60 and others. A fat bloated army is slow and can only grind.

Once the special rule set of 41 is over, papering over the short coming of the logistics system you dump the reserves back into your Army which will lead to a 42 SHC steam roller I am guessing.
Completely unhistorical, but we did not write the code we all just play with what we were given.

The game about logistics not the size of the ones army.

you keep on mentioning this 'special rule set', what do you mean? The modelling of the real problems the Germans had with using civilian trucks (of many makes) or integrating their train stock into the Soviet system?

Loki don’t be so defensive and simply look at the results.

Gundam is basically mocking the whole system by having 1,000,000 men in reserve and still achieving an unhistorical great 41/42 winter. SHC does not need to defend Leningrad, black sea ports, planes or those 1,000,000 men. Just run at just the right speed, because of a poorly designed logistics system.

The current model is all about SHC running at the correct speed as Q-ball and I have talked about in PMs. It has zero to do with trucks and trains, player skills ect ect. If SHC runs at the correct speed you will get unhistorically low Russian loses and an unhistorical 41/42 winter SHC offensive which German army simply can’t recover from because it causes a feedback loop and than SHC is on a unhistorical offensive in 42. This running at just the right speed tactic is used because of special rules put on the Germans logistics system.

As AlbertN points out “ the issue is that hardly Germans can achieve historical results as of now - which should be the 'Average' of the game. How many Axis players get to Orel, Rostov, Kursk etcetera. And how many can also keep a good portion of these through the coming winter?”

This is all caused by special rules to the German logistics system. If the logistics system is so great why all the special rules that cause the game to be so unhistorical?

This will become more unhistorical and more boringly predictable as more and more AARs show players how to game the poor logistics model.

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RE: T26

Post by AlbertN »

My list of Balance issues go beyond the Logistic - that is not even at the top - but it is neither 'just Assault Soviet HQs' that oversimplifies it.

Here I feel RoadWarrior went where the logistics helped them - as per where ports assisted the insufficient railroads.
There is also the other component that to take Orel and then lose it during Winter nets to the Soviets a +6 too (That is why I am insisting VPs need rework, and certainly Bonus for premature conquest only for who has the initiative).

But mostly it's the Combat Capability of the Red Army that is exceedingly overwhelming. And I do not think it's just due to Assault HQ but also due to the sheer possibility of retreating and avoid engagements til they're ready for. (Which may be a consequence of the logistic Axis hamstring) paired up with the possibility of the Soviets to bomb railyards and the like with little to no opposition.

Edit: Adding up - there is no 'steep learning curve' or 'players must master the business' excuse. A single game takes hours of one's life. If the game feels wrong, players move on (At least I do at some point if I do not see proper changes) than to waste hours trying to master a system that is perceived as flawed.
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