Balance is Good

[sveint]

WarPlan is in a good spot right now when it comes to balance. Not perfect, but good.

Remaining issues as I see them:

USSR is too weak in 1942. My suggestion is to give their armor and mech 7 moves in 1942.

UK is too strong in 1940. I don't really have any specific suggestions. But being able to produce a huge BEF is too much.

Germany has too much manpower. I never even look at German manpower anymore, even if the game goes into 44/45. Should go from 32 back to 30.

[generalfdog]

I agree for the most part, but whatever tweaks would have to be minor because if you weaken UK to much then a sea lion becomes a constant, and if you strengthen Ussr too much in 42 then the initial successes of case blue become impossible.

[Nirosi]

...whatever tweaks would have to be minor because if you weaken UK to much then a sea lion becomes a constant...

There should be a way to weaken it in a way to make it stop having a mastodon BEF but still catch up to the actual strength by June or July 1940. Maybe by playing with MP (make it very low until April or so)?

[redrum68]

"UK is too strong in 1940" this is still the main problem as if Allies play a strong BEF (land and/or air) then you probably don't make it to the rest of the game as its over in 1940. There are many ways to address this that have been brought up that have minimal impact on a sea lion or other parts of the game:
- Give UK less income in 1939 and early 1940 but then increase it mid 1940
- Freeze or require more units in Egypt/England so the UK can't send so many to France
- Have units added later in 1940 like the armor in Egypt to avoid it being sent to France
- Weaken France instead of UK by say decreasing their land/air morale by say 5 points

After the last patch, I'm not sure the USSR is still too weak and if so then its much closer than before after the overrun changes. I tend to agree that they probably still need a bit of a buff in winter of 1941-1942 and in 1942+ but not a lot.

[generalfdog]

giving UK more production in June doesn't help stop a 1940 sea lion as those units will come too late. Maybe give Germany another armor or or more subs to start, I really don't have too much trouble in France but maybe haven't played vs one of these all in folks.

[redrum68]

Well depends when sea lion is launched. But even increasing UK production in say around April/May should be fine. Essentially after the UK could use it to build infantry for the start of France. You could also even put a few UK units in the queue to arrive in say July/August to compensate for the decreased production.

[scout1]

Make seaborne invasions WAY more difficult ... these were huge undertakings at the time and could be part of the technology walk ....Nobody really had more than a silly chance of a sea invasion early in the war ....

[sveint]

Make seaborne invasions WAY more difficult ... these were huge undertakings at the time and could be part of the technology walk ....Nobody really had more than a silly chance of a sea invasion early in the war ....

Except Norway, except Vichy, except...

The rule really should be :
Invading activated countries : almost impossible
Invading neutral countries : not that hard really

[stjeand]

My thoughts on the UK...

Force them to garrison the UK...and force the garrison to increase until the fall of France.
SO as they are building more...which is expected you increase the garrison size.
Same with air...Perhaps it is 4 air units have to be based in UK.
French fleet should be required to be in the Med...due to Italy.

The issue is...WHAT penalty would occur IF they did not meet said garrison?
French fleet is easy...Italy joins.

UK? For me the reason for the garrison is to quell the concerns of the citizens that Germany can not invade.
Perhaps the UK loses manpower as people do not feel safe so they refuse to work / assist. Just a thought.

NOW there might be an issue where someone says...Well what if they do not build more?
Many that have played know you require large corps in the main southern cities...and small in a few others.
BUT this has to be thought out. I hate limiting someone and that forces them to build land units just to keep from being penalized.
Perhaps they are forced to keep their starting force there?
I am not sure that that UK can build enough land outside their starting force, but I would have to test that.


Another simple version might be to put the UK in a manpower crunch early....so they can't build heavily and repair everything. Then in 1940 they get a manpower bump.

Would this keep them safe from Sealion?
Sadly IF Germany really really wants it...I am not sure the UK can stop it.
I have tried...BUT the UK has to keep EVERYTHING in the UK just to survive.
BUT Germany has to go all in and if they do and fail the game is likely over.
It is not like Africa where they can go half in and just delay the Allies.

Issues with invasions?
Well they are easy for the Allies...naval advantage. Small fleets hurts this a bit...BUT the bigger issue is...
Units that move by rail lose efficiency but by sea none.
This still boggles my mind.

I rail an air unit 20 hexes I lose 15 efficiency...I fly it I lose 12 but 2 oil...I move it port to port 0 of both.

That is messed up.

Sorry but moving air by sea required disarming the planes...taking the wings off...putting said planes in the hold of the transports...then the reverse to unload.

Same with tanks...you have crane them into a hold of a ship...

Should cost the same to transport.

Land units are similar.
I believe infantry take 5% hit and armor seems to change a bit...I have seen 8% and 9%. Not sure how this is calculated. Or perhaps just 9% and I am blind.

WOULD this fix invasions? No but make them harder.

I agree with the if you invade a country you have been at war with perhaps when you land you should lose more efficiency since they are "defending" and more expecting an attack...where as less when you surprise a country.

This would be even more interesting with hidden naval units...
Can't wait for that in Europe. WOULD LOVE to test that.

[generalfdog]

that is already done in wpp, just not wpe yet

[redrum68]

@stjeand - Some good ideas but I worry that most of those things aren't going to be easy to implement in the current game which is why my suggestions were a bit simpler. But I do agree invasions and transporting by sea shouldn't be so easy.

[CHINCHIN]

I think the balance is pretty good.

Regarding invasions, I think that against well-defended hexes it is difficult, the problem is that many neutral countries have empty or very poorly defended ports.

What I do think should be reviewed is the drop of paratroopers, it is very easy to destroy air units with a paratrooper, or leave a large number of units without supply with a few paratroopers, or take a capital or key place. This forces you to defend many second line hexes.

To start with they should have casualties when landing, for example, 1 STR minimum, plus another STR if the terrain is not flat, plus another STR if they land in an enemy ZOC, plus between 0 and 2 more STR randomly.

Maybe lowering their range to 6 would be fine as well, or only moving 1, or even not being able to move the turn of their cast. Or that they drastically lowered their preparation when they were launched. It would also be nice if the mission could be aborted, as long as there are enemy fighters in range, a 50% chance for example.

The French fleet as a garrison in the Mediterranean cannot be done with the editor. Only supports ground units.

[AlvaroSousa]

The invasion tech transfer from WPP can't be put in WPE. It would change the data structure. That is why it hasn't been retrofitted back.

The planes losing 15% like a rail via transports is a good idea as it is the same method of time to transfer so I will add that in the next patch.

[generalfdog]

idk CHIN CHIN I like paras the way they are, I know it might not be 100% realistic but if they are hampered to much more they wouldn't really be useful, if they landed all reduced and having taken casualties like you are talking they would doa

[stjeand]

Sadly I tested and I can not find naval unit in range check within the event file.
Not sure it is implemented.

Paratroopers are just commandoes in my eyes. If you don't cover your air...*cough* sveint then they will get taken out.
Protect them.
It is already insanely hard to get them to 100%. You basically can't without trucks since if they are at 94% it is 3 months of good weather to gain 6 efficiency.
I think there should be a higher minimum but that is me. Say 2% minimum +1% if HQ close.

I still think infantry and armor should take the same efficiency hit when the get on a boat.
Not sure it is any easier harder to get on a train vs a boat...for either.

Tanks still need to be loaded into the hold of the ship individually by crane. Whether they leave them fueled up and fully armed...well now a days we know that is a NO NO...but not sure what they did in WW2 without OSHA.
Men still need to walk up a gang plank or get off a train.


And redrum agreed...I just wanted to put it out there.
I think it would be very easy to say...HEY if you get on a boat...it is just like a train. That would be quite a change alone. Enough? I don't know.

I know Al is very busy with his other games and I rather not heavily distract him. I believe he sets one day a side to work on the WPE and WPP...so figured heck...all you can do is ask.

[CHINCHIN]

Sadly I tested and I can not find naval unit in range check within the event file.
Not sure it is implemented.

The French fleet as a garrison in the Mediterranean cannot be done with the editor. Only supports ground units.

I would settle for the paratroopers not being able to fall into enemy ZOCs or over forests or mountains.

[Nirosi]

Sadly I tested and I can not find naval unit in range check within the event file.
Not sure it is implemented.

The French fleet as a garrison in the Mediterranean cannot be done with the editor. Only supports ground units.

I would settle for the paratroopers not being able to fall into enemy ZOCs ...

If they can not fall into ZOC, then they will never be able to attack (except divisions) as they will have to move into ZOC and then have no more OP left...

[Shampoocat]

How about nerfing the UKs production, but in turn give them some event troops that pop up, should axis invade the Islands?

[stjeand]

Paratroopers not dropping in ZOCs would make them useless.
But they should have a random chance of sustaining damage.

Nerfing the UK is not something I want...because Sealion is easy going.

I don't bother to do it often...takes a bit of planning and honestly if you succeed it is game over.
You fail...it is game over.

So knowing this...it just makes the game less fun.

Like a big BEF.

IF the UK succeeds they win.
IF they fail...there is a high likely hood that they lose. I survived once though not sure how.

The last two players that did a big BEF against me lost the UK to Sealion.
I suspect neither will do that again.

Everyone thinks it is the end all be all...but they have to be SO careful...the UK is pretty much full of divisions and crumble as panzer invade and paratroopers drop.
In 1941 IF there are 3 or 4 armor in the UK...they are done for. They can't hold. Their troops are just not that good yet and the Germans have the numbers.

[CHINCHIN]

If they can not fall into ZOC, then they will never be able to attack (except divisions) as they will have to move into ZOC and then have no more OP left...

It is what I want, that they are useless, I hate them!!

You are right, I am attacking the paratroopers because they have done me a lot of damage in several PBEMs. It is a matter of contemplating that possibility at all times and taking action, not like me, who completely forget about them.

In any case, if they had some casualties when falling, and that they could not be thrown in forests and / or hills, it would not hurt. It would also be good, maybe for WP2, to limit these units, for example with special forces points per turn, for replacements and new units, for paratroopers, mountain, and marine units.