Convoy Escort Tech

[canuckgamer]

Does the convoy escort tech only benefit destroyers that are convoy escort as opposed to the warship category? I notice that with destroyers you cannot change their advancement like you can with land units.

Let's say the UK is at 1941 convoy escort tech. There are resources being shipped to them via the North Atlantic convoy route. They have one DD within 24 hexes of a raiding sub but the DD is a warship rather than a convoy escort. Does the fact that the UK is now at 41 convoy escort tech benefit them compared to if they were still at 1939.

Otherwise the only benefit for the escort tech is if I were to build convoy escort destroyers. I'm wondering if it is worth assigning the maximum research points to this tech if it only benefits convoy escort destroyers.

[Nirosi]

As with all units, an advancement benefits only a unit build with that advancement. If it is not in the name it does not benefit. So only patrol or CVs built "escort" will get it.

For sub-hunters within 24 hexes, any DD (patrol) get a +1%, no matter the type of advancement, no matter the year of advancement, not matter the strength (damaged or not). A flat 1% no matter what (or 2% for CVs).

[Nirosi]

PS : In WPP, that advancement was actually removed altogether. It is more of a "legacy" thing now I would say... Shows the game's history, but not used really...

[canuckgamer]

I had actually thought that the convoy escort tech improved the chances of protecting and destroying u-boats if you had assigned escorts to that convoy route. Or possibly an increase in the sub-hunter bonus but that doesn't seem to be the case.
If not, I don't know why anyone would ever research convoy escorts since u-boats can only be attacked when they are in a coastal hex.

[Nirosi]

I think nobody does. That is probably why it was removed from WPP. And warship advancement (or even heavy warship) does improve anti-sub a little, more than enough in my opinion.

I once build a US CV with escort advancement (the other unit that can be built with it). I did for fun mostly, but that was when CVs could attack submarines in high sea like other planes. Although that change was good as now at least the BoA seem fair enough (was way too easy for allies before).

PS : do not forget that ships can also "fire" at subs not near coastals when "firing back" (when the subs initiate the battle). So it could be useful as protection against subs in a way (not just for attack). But again, warship advancement is good enough for that as we can see from experience (and research points are to rare to be used for something with such little impact).

[canuckgamer]

By 1943, the Allies had won the Battle of the Atlantic. This was due to better tactics, improved tech for the escorts, breaking the enigma code and longer range aircraft to name four. How is this reflected in WP since the escort advancement only improves surface combat with subs.
That's why I thought the escort advancement improved the chances of defending and destroying u-boats when they were assigned to a convoy route. Which means to counter the u-boats you just build more escorts so there are 10 on each convoy route and hope for some lucky convoy raiding combat rolls.

[Nirosi]

The anti-sub tech is actually included in the convoy escort tech. You do need to research that one. That is the advancement escort rely on, and that is the one supposed to reflect all those better tech and tactic. If you do not research at least this one, the BoA will be lost by the Allies. The abstracted escorts are the one doing the real job, the extra +1% per patrol ship in range is just a small bonus that will make an OK, but small difference. And also maybe the electronic's advancement for the planes if you which to use them (I do). It will affect them quite strongly when they attack subs (but will not change their passive +2%).

So the tech is reflected in the game, just not on the one you mentioned. Frankly, that tech for on map ships could be removed all together like it was in WPP.

[ncc1701e]

So Convoy Escort is indeed vital for Allies.

By the way, does plane (detection and electronics) in range of a convoy route add something to the sub hunter bonus? That would be logical.

[Nirosi]

Yes I remember air units with detection and electronic do give a +2% within their range, but can not find in the manual. Might have an outdated manual. (or maybe I just imagined it).

[Nirosi]

OK, confirmed here by Alvaro and other players.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... r#p4875803

[kklemmick]

I was told by other players that this tech impacts the number of merchants/escorts that are destroyed and how much damage is done back to the attacking subs, so I started putting a lot into it as the UK. However, the randomness in these combats is so high it's hard to tell if it has any impact or not. I'd love if Alvaro could chime in here if it's used or not. Clearly there are no ship types with this type in any of the European scenarios, so on the surface the tech seems useless unless it's used in other ways.

[Nirosi]

I was told by other players that this tech impacts the number of merchants/escorts that are destroyed and how much damage is done back to the attacking subs, so I started putting a lot into it as the UK. However, the randomness in these combats is so high it's hard to tell if it has any impact or not. I'd love if Alvaro could chime in here if it's used or not. Clearly there are no ship types with this type in any of the European scenarios, so on the surface the tech seems useless unless it's used in other ways.

I just realized that I badly expressed myself after re-reading my post (I was implying falsely that there where two anti-sub techs avancement).

Convoy escort can affect tree type of units : of-map escorts always as it is their intrinsic only choice, patrol groups build with that tech and CVs build with that tech.

Now, a unit can only follow one tech path. So patrol units build with Warship, will not benefit from Convoy escort (and vice-versa).

So yes, Convoy escort does help the off-map escort in convoy battles. 1943 subs vs 1939 escort will have a field day. I noticed often that the losses of escort is actually quite bad in 1939, early 1940 before they get tech 1 (which gives them +1 defense). They will not lower MM loses directly, only indirectly by hitting subs (which they will, on average, more and more as they get better tech). Often around 1942, as the Axis, I start noticing that it gets harder at sea as my lose mount and "one shot sinking" of u-bots starts to be less exceptional. So yes, Convoy escort is vital (but for escorts only, not for patrol ships and CVs). That second option (to put it on CVs and patrol ships) was even removed from WPP.

Now, for on-map ships, Convoy escorts tech will only affect ship build with that advancement if a player builds one such unit (none on map at start since a few patches ago).

For the sub-hunter bonus, it is not dependent on advancement, only on type. So any patrol (convoy escort or warship advancement) will give an extra 1%*.

* My understanding it is that the extra 1% (or more) increase the effectiveness of off-map escort. If they are no escorts in a convoy, sub-hunters seem to do noting from my experience. I also have noticed a huge difference effectiveness between 9 and 10 escorts (10 is a must) as almost all convoy lanes are over 50 resources anyway. Escorts are the true sub-killers, sub-hunters are the symbolic add-on. It is like the bonus question at an exam, it is nice to have it, but it is not that much compared to the main exam. Of course, when I can get a +7 to +10, it starts to be quite a nice bonus, not that rare if the German always goes to the same place. I also noticed that to give the UK a real sweat (500+ merchant sunk), one needs at least 9 u-boats, ideally 11. Under that loses are mangeable for the UK. Loses of about 200 MM, which is a good result if Axis builds no extra u-boats, are frankly nothing for the Allies over a 3-4 year period.

[canuckgamer]

Thanks to everyone for the detailed replies. I have actually learned more about this game from the forum than the manual which is missing a lot of information about game play.
Nice to know that the research points I allocated to the escort advancement was not wasted. I have noticed that if you assign less than 10 escorts to a convoy route it is more likely to lose escorts to the u-boats. I'm wondering if other players have the same experience.

[Nirosi]

Thanks to everyone for the detailed replies. I have actually learned more about this game from the forum than the manual which is missing a lot of information about game play.
Nice to know that the research points I allocated to the escort advancement was not wasted. I have noticed that if you assign less than 10 escorts to a convoy route it is more likely to lose escorts to the u-boats. I'm wondering if other players have the same experience.

Yes. It is because one need 1 escort for each 5 MMs in a convoy. But at 10 escorts, one always get the max efficiency no matter how many MMs. Now since most convoys are more than 45 MM, it always means that at 9 escorts or less, one is always below the minimum requirement of 1 for 5. Hence the need for 10 almost everywhere where U-boats are poised to attack if you want max efficiency.

[Nirosi]

Thanks to everyone for the detailed replies. I have actually learned more about this game from the forum than the manual which is missing a lot of information about game play.

It is almost all there with some exceptions. But, however, sometimes hidden in a very innocent sentence in the middle of a paragraph and easy to miss. Also, not all changes over time did make it in the updated manual.

[sveint]

Just a further note, the UK should always, always max their Convoy Escort tech.

[AlvaroSousa]

Just a further note, the UK should always, always max their Convoy Escort tech.

100% true