Open Beta Patch v1.26o2 (12 may 2025)

[Thrake]

Metal can be purchased.

It can, but not in significant quantities. A good metal mine will output ~1000 metal a turn and quickly the aim will be to have multiple level 4+ metal mines.

Metal can be mined from Recycling plants (which you need IP to build). However, the *only* way to get IP is a hex perk, a private industry asset, or public industry asset. Only one of those is directly under the player's control. So while conserving your IP to develop your metal collection and industry, you also need to balance IP use with road building for expansion and troop creation. Once you get your recycling centers up and running, the metal problem diminishes - it only becomes a problem again when you start producing tanks/artillery (build cost + ammunition usage).

Let's run some numbers - one recycling center costs 100 metal and 270 IP to build, and will produce somewhere between 40 to 100 metal a turn. An industry asset will cost 390 IP and 1500 metal. You start out with a private recycling center producing 60 metal a turn, and around 50 IP production a turn. That's 6 turns worth of IP vs 2 turns of metal. So while waiting those 6 turns to build enough IP for one center, you've now produced another 2 recycling centers worth of metal. And there's not a lot you can do with that metal without IP, so it builds up quickly. IP, however, seems to be always in demand - roads/ammunition/etc all need it. Once you get a couple recycling centers up and running. the metal problem goes away. The IP problem doesn't.

At the end of the day, if you have excess metal, I think that you don't have enough industry. If you like runing numbers, let me offer these: a level 4 industry outputs 1000 IP per turn. The cumulative cost of a level 1 to 4 industry is 15 000 metal and 2 480 IP. As you can see, the IP cost is minimal. The only thing required is metal... And time.

It takes a while to develop the first industry but once that is up everything will grow exponantially and allow you to overgrow players that invested in anything else.

[grime]

It takes a while to develop the first industry but once that is up everything will grow exponantially and allow you to overgrow players that invested in anything else.

Which is why I said in my initial post... "Early game success ...".

[Uemon]

The whole reason why i brought this up in the first place is precisely because there is a huge discrepancy between how easy it is to build IP once you go beyond first and second level versus how difficult it is to get started before you get first level industry.

The gamepay of sitting there and waiting for like 10+ turns just to build level 1 industry - and meanwhile being unable to build anything else whatsoever is not really fun or engaging gameplay either. I truly dont understand why people are resisting this.

A low efficiency, low cost asset (like the "workshop" i proposed) would allow you to relatively quickly boost your IP production so that you can start producing actual combat units.

Alternatively i suggest rebalancing level one industry cost so that barrier to entry is lower and the "snowballing" effect is reduced.

Any of these options would also help the AI.

[Uemon]

Also i am baffled how someone can claim that metal is the early game bottleneck and not IP. Literally wha? Are we even playing the same game?

Assuming you start game with base guaranteed metal deposit, and assuming you build that metal mine in first 5 turns, youll be swimming in metal, easily reaching 3000 or 4000 before you save up enough IP to build level 1 industry...

Heck even if you dont build a metal mine and instead you build a recycling thingie on top of one ruins, youll still save up more metal than you need to build level 1 industry, before you get enough IP to build level 1 industry...

[Soar_Slitherine]

Assuming you start game with base guaranteed metal deposit, and assuming you build that metal mine in first 5 turns, youll be swimming in metal, easily reaching 3000 or 4000 before you save up enough IP to build level 1 industry...

A starting metal deposit is not guaranteed in a tech 3 start above Beginner difficulty.

[Xxzard]

Alright, breaking out the spreadsheet (apologies for the poor formatting). I played a game on a hazard level 4 planet (recycling IP cost/turn = 145IP, public industry IP cost/turn = 180IP) and created some projections based on observations in that game. 1 zone, tech 3 start. 1 accessible scav hex in the city, no others adjacent or easily available. No IP hex perks. No metal deposits. No neighboring minors. This is what I mean by a low resource start.

Let's neglect trade, stratagems, other buildings/infrastructure, and unit production for now - to some degree they may cancel each other out. My main goal is to build industry level 1 to start that snowball, be able to build more mines, roads, etc. Worst case scenario, I will need the IP to build a road to distant resources or build metal soil filtration. I factor in 1 level of private industry, which I've placed at round 6. It could come earlier or later depending on private funding and AI choice.

Round,metal,IP,Metal Prod,IP Prod,Metal Cost,IP Cost
1 196 118 60 68 0 0 nationalize scav
2 256 186 60 68 50 145 public scav
3 266 109 60 68 50 145
4 276 32 104 68 0 0
5 380 100 104 68 0 0
6 484 168 104 68 0 0 private industry
7 588 236 104 100 0 0
8 692 336 104 100 0 0
9 796 436 104 100 0 0
10 900 536 104 100 0 0
11 1004 636 104 100 0 0
12 1108 736 104 100 0 0
13 1212 836 104 100 500 180 public industry
14 816 756 104 100 500 180
15 420 676 104 100 500 180
16 24 596 104 160 0 0

The above is about the earliest I can get public industry up under the above assumptions. Round 13 start, round 16 complete industry. I want to point out that I /do/ have spare IP early on, but almost anything with a metal cost will delay the industry other than early recycling or a metal mine. So in a low resource game with 1 isolated scav hex, metal is likely to be the bottleneck for the first 15 turns /because/ I believe public industry is necessary as soon as possible to build roads and pay for higher hazard costs. Afterwards, IP becomes the bottleneck for quite a while, then perhaps shifting back towards metal going into the mid-late game beyond industry 3, depending on conditions.

I would like to see more early game IP generation options in these situations so that there are more strategic options besides stockpiling for that first public industry level. I emphasize that this is only really annoying when resources and scavenging locations are very limited. The next game I played after this one, I spawned in the middle of a huge ruin field and got industry up by round 7 or 8, while absorbing minor neighbors. Therefore, it's really not a serious problem, but I feel that first industry step can be a big one.

Open to alternate strategic options too, but of course it is the nature of the game that it is highly situational.

[Vic]

bump! tiny patch with last fixes for next release version coming soon. thanks for feedback all! much appreciated, as always.

[Don_Kiyote]

Resource and economy buildup in general is really slow when you have 1 low pop zone and only 1 or 2 scavenge locations in that zone.

lolz and?
Geography is fate, or, we have map-based difficulty.

[Xxzard]

Resource and economy buildup in general is really slow when you have 1 low pop zone and only 1 or 2 scavenge locations in that zone.

lolz and?
Geography is fate, or, we have map-based difficulty.

Lolz and perhaps adding more strategic options in this situation would offer a greater number of viable build paths in the early game. I am just observing that the early game in certain situations has perhaps limited options for reaching an economic critical mass.

I like that geography and luck determines difficulty in some measure - the level of environment randomization is one of the best selling points for this game. I do not want a change that makes the game easier, but I think more early game economic options could improve the game and want to discuss it.

As an example, for a long time the agreed upon best path, the 'meta', of early game economic research in a low tech start was to rush discovery of solar power or power plant tech to make sure you had some way to generate power. Then, Vic added scav and organic furnaces, and the ability to focus research discovery in a specific research group. That addition opened up more options depending on the environment and situation you find yourself in - on a world with forests or lots of ruins you don't need to rush power generation techs. I think alternate ways to generate IP in the early game, or having a smaller industry building/level could help depending on the game situation. Consider the difference between a high population start on a habitable planet with lots of ruins versus a low population start on an extremely hazardous planet (an airless moon, for example) with minimal ruins. On a moon, everything will cost a lot of IP due to the hazard level, so IP generation is critical. But other than hex perks or private industry, the only IP generation option is extremely expensive public industry that is going to take many turns of stockpiling to afford. I think some form of intermediate IP generation system or building would be nice to fill the gap.

[Mechasaurian]

It would be very nice if we could allow the troops of military allies to pass through our own lands.

You know, like the British Expeditionary Force fighting inside French territory in WW1?

[Don_Kiyote]

I am just observing that the early game in certain situations has perhaps limited options for reaching an economic critical mass.

What you say^ is true. I see it like that sometimes as well. But I don't believe the best way to make this situation viable is to introduce another type of Industrial asset.

I never play moons though...

One thing is, the game has been stretched, so not being able build IP early is a matter of pacing. The AI can't do it either. I would rather have a way to play as a de facto minor, a Switzerland, staying small and well defended and neutral, and mainly: being able to use diplomacy to back out of wars when they do come, making them less inevitable or at least less interminable and permanent.

Then you or I could manage it; not being steamrolled, being a small, one zone, low-pop low-metal 2-scav regime, holding the border, exploring inland, and playing the long game. Live and let live! Down with the Snowball! (Just teasing)

It might be fun though, to invent an interim, early game IP. It could work as a planet-gen option, and Multi-players might welcome it as would aggressive players. But I need a story, and there isn't much room below 50IP for just a plain old 'Industry 1/2'. (and I don't like the trading idea)

I could imagine, linked perhaps to a planet-gen option, a tier-1 tech: "Knowledge Recovery - Technical", unlocking "the repair of a GR field module installed to help this barren location survive", which takes 1 Hi-tech, 1 Machine. and 50 rare and 50 metal, yielding an automated field factory (30IP/turn; 20e, 400wp)... And also, the regime is gifted one Hi-Tech part on creation.

[grime]

I am just observing that the early game in certain situations has perhaps limited options for reaching an economic critical mass.

I could imagine, linked perhaps to a planet-gen option, a tier-1 tech: "Knowledge Recovery - Technical", unlocking "the repair of a GR field module installed to help this barren location survive", which takes 1 Hi-tech, 1 Machine. and 50 rare and 50 metal, yielding an automated field factory (30IP/turn; 20e, 400wp)... And also, the regime is gifted one Hi-Tech part on creation.

Starting off the game with a Public Industry, or having it be one of the first things built would work quite nicely. The player wouldn't need to invest IP/metal, but still get some $$ from taxes and a limited amount of IP.

[Mechasaurian]

I am just observing that the early game in certain situations has perhaps limited options for reaching an economic critical mass.

I could imagine, linked perhaps to a planet-gen option, a tier-1 tech: "Knowledge Recovery - Technical", unlocking "the repair of a GR field module installed to help this barren location survive", which takes 1 Hi-tech, 1 Machine. and 50 rare and 50 metal, yielding an automated field factory (30IP/turn; 20e, 400wp)... And also, the regime is gifted one Hi-Tech part on creation.

Starting off the game with a Public Industry, or having it be one of the first things built would work quite nicely. The player wouldn't need to invest IP/metal, but still get some $$ from taxes and a limited amount of IP.

Yeah, tbh I've been getting bored of the early game being a slog where you're trying to scape together the resources to Actually Do Stuff. The increased IP costs on hostile worlds makes this early-game-slog worse.

I'd give level 1 public industry to tech 1 starts, level 2 to tech 2, and level 3 to tech 3.

[solops]

I got bored with the early game single-city, low tech slog loooong ago. I skip all of that now, starting with two or three zones and a formation or three. I still usually go lowest tech. This really accelerates the game into more interesting warfare.

[Vic]

Bump! another small fix. But actually not that small in impact.

[Don_Kiyote]

Thanks for the update, Vic. I'm still slogging through the early game.

About the game pacing issues, its a little like a shaggy dog joke, now that I think about it.

Just two quick points:

1. Hard mode is now actually hard, as intended. The ai is kicking back, and not folding easily, as it was before. Especially in military tactics.

2. One factor or system which is not in the game, is the ability to influence an AI's opinion towards a third party or second AI, such as with a minor-major relationships. But this mechanic sounds like an advanced government/society relations thing which may be developed in the future.

[mattpilot]

Not sure where to post this in the forum, or if its even related to the beta, but is this a bug?

Is there a reason a town of 30k is building so many dome-steads? Its using up all my manpower. Will it eventually 'merge' into a proper dome-farm?

[mattpilot]

every single one of my cities (except capital) wants to build dome farmsteads.... they dont stop. I keep disbanding them, jumping 500 credits into their private economy each turn in the hopes that they build something better/bigger.

Is it some kind of happiness/QOL thing that triggers this?

[Don_Kiyote]

my cities... wants to build dome farmsteads.... they dont stop.

Still going on, or sorted?

It can seem like too much too many sometimes, but there is supposed to be a check for sufficient population first, before building another 'farmstead' or 'domestead'. If there is a serious population problem, then it may be a bug, but I cant tell from here.

[solops]

my cities... wants to build dome farmsteads.... they dont stop.

Still going on, or sorted?

It can seem like too much too many sometimes, but there is supposed to be a check for sufficient population first, before building another 'farmstead' or 'domestead'. If there is a serious population problem, then it may be a bug, but I cant tell from here.

Been this way since the beginning. Even if the city could build regular farms, it seems to prefer domed farms....a lot of them.