Improve Support Squads

[Thistle_Tea]

Fairly straightforward suggestion:

Support squads are currently a strict negative for any combat or support unit TOE; the fewer, the better in all cases. The impacts are relative to the required support squads, which, again, means a TOE with fewer support squads is always better than one with more.

This factor means that certain units which should be quite weak due to the lack of support, eg. soviet cavalry divisions are unjustifiably strong. Additionally, it makes late-war soviet formations, which have a roughly 2:1 ratio of rifles to support, disproportionately stronger than comparable German formations, which have a roughly 1:1.5 ratio of rifles to support.

This is probably a large element of what contributes to the frustration of playing late-war Germany, where even when you fight numerically even battles, you are, in fact, vastly outnumbered in actual fighting units simply due to the deterioration of your TOEs which become increasingly bloated with support squads, going from 1:1 rifles to support to 1:1.5 and eventually 1:2 or even 1:2.5 . This leads to the fairly absurd situation where oftentimes, a Soviet 1943/4 division will have a higher CV than an equivalent (similar TOE, rest, CCP) German division simply due to the disparity in support squads, despite the German division still having a significant nominal advantage in both men, experience and morale.

There should be some sort of significant combat benefit to having a lower tooth-to-tail ratio, as the late-war Germans do, since all of those extra logistics guys, signals guys, medics and quartermasters should have some kind of benefit to making the soldiers fight more effectively and take fewer losses.

Possible options would be :

1. Adding an ammo requirement for the support squads which would increase the fire rate of other elements

2. Applying a reduction in combat / retreat losses depending on the ratio of support to rifle squads (which would help mitigate the issue with German formations simply disintegrating from 1943 onwards)

3. Providing support squads some CV by assigning them rifles similar to how rifles are assigned to labour squads.

[Lurberri]

+ 1
The support units were there for a purpose, their functions are essential for combat units to fight with full effectiveness. The American divisions were famous for this, and it was certainly not something that was unimportant in combat (as the game seems to indicate).

[Wiedrock]

Fairly straightforward suggestion:

Support squads are currently a strict negative for any combat or support unit TOE; the fewer, the better in all cases. The impacts are relative to the required support squads, which, again, means a TOE with fewer support squads is always better than one with more.

This factor means that certain units which should be quite weak due to the lack of support, eg. soviet cavalry divisions are unjustifiably strong. Additionally, it makes late-war soviet formations, which have a roughly 2:1 ratio of rifles to support, disproportionately stronger than comparable German formations, which have a roughly 1:1.5 ratio of rifles to support.

This is probably a large element of what contributes to the frustration of playing late-war Germany, where even when you fight numerically even battles, you are, in fact, vastly outnumbered in actual fighting units simply due to the deterioration of your TOEs which become increasingly bloated with support squads, going from 1:1 rifles to support to 1:1.5 and eventually 1:2 or even 1:2.5 . This leads to the fairly absurd situation where oftentimes, a Soviet 1943/4 division will have a higher CV than an equivalent (similar TOE, rest, CCP) German division simply due to the disparity in support squads, despite the German division still having a significant nominal advantage in both men, experience and morale.

There should be some sort of significant combat benefit to having a lower tooth-to-tail ratio, as the late-war Germans do, since all of those extra logistics guys, signals guys, medics and quartermasters should have some kind of benefit to making the soldiers fight more effectively and take fewer losses.

Possible options would be :

1. Adding an ammo requirement for the support squads which would increase the fire rate of other elements

2. Applying a reduction in combat / retreat losses depending on the ratio of support to rifle squads (which would help mitigate the issue with German formations simply disintegrating from 1943 onwards)

3. Providing support squads some CV by assigning them rifles similar to how rifles are assigned to labour squads.

I don't think they are fully negative in every way. Things they supposedly impact are just hard to track/observe for us or unclear explained in the manual.
I think they, and especially the Support in HQs impact way more then one might think. Example is, modding the VL scenario to not have any Construction SU and reducing the HQ TOEs to only have 5 Support Squads on German side. This removes the ability of all units, also those like Ski Battalions (they only have 2 construction value) to build one full Fort level within 1 turn without mathematically being able to do so in any way otherwise without some help. So this help must come from the Support Squads in HQs,....but why/how is not know/described in the manual afaik.
Additionally they supposedly impact Leader rolls in some way. From looking at the manual it is not exacly clear how...unfortunately.

Additioinally the fact that all Infantry Divisions have always sufficient "Support" is somewhat funny/feels weird and makes the HQ's ability to provide Support pretty redundant for Infantry only Formations/chains of Command.

The late war inceases of German Support-to-Fighter-percentages in normal Infantry Formatiobs are mostly due to false Manpower numbers (there are more posts with similar cases to this) used "to fill up Divisions to manpower" after adding all combat elements. So this observation you have made is correct and caused by wrong manpower numbers in the TOEs being used to fill them up.

[AlbertN]

I pointed that out previously, and tried to tinker about it in a mod.
I am working on a very similar mod (just restarted with the latest patch)

To add CV to the Support Squads is okay early on but later on will backfire as anyhow Soviets have more stacked - albeit this is the first and easier way to toy with the issue.
I tried to create a duplicate of Support Squad as type, and differen tiate the CV contribution between Russian and German support squad - but the game seems to be harcoded on a number associated to the Ground Type Element - Support Squad, more than what it is this thing, oh it is a Support Squad type of association. So it cannot work alas - at least going via the Editor.


To give Support Squads an Ammo need that then other ground elements use - that can be good on the paper BUT in reality it would not really work that well because that ammo load must be replenished, and while Axis struggle with logistics, Soviets are lavished with.

But 'support' in truth is the 'core' of a unit.
From truck drivers to other logistical assets, to the HQ command and staff, the signal team, communications, field hospital, veterinary, etc.

The issue only grows worse as after 1-2 combats where a German unit retreats, Support remains untouched for the most and combat elements are lost, so while a a division may have lost 20% of its manpower for instance, that's like 19% of combat elements and 1% of support that was lost.
Considering in '41 the ratios are 64 % support squads in IDs, and 36% combat elements ... it's easy for German divisions to be knocked out cold after 1-2 retreats.