Vildebeest Load?

[Gridley380]

So, I belatedly realized today that despite carefully insuring the base HQa had plenty of torps, etc., my Vildebeests weren't flying naval attack.

Hmm... showing "using torpedoes" in the right color, check, naval attack, morale 99, drop tanks on, plenty of supply at the base, good leader...

Yes, some of you have probably already spotted the problem.

I finally clicked on the aircraft info. Wait a second - where are the torpedoes? This thing has guns and a 100gal drop tank! Must be a database error. Exit game, load editor... hmm... that shows a torpedo device. OK, check against stock... same aircraft data. Huh. Maybe they don't have torps in the game in stock? OK, load up Scenario 1... they have torps. WTH? Reload my game. Wait... drop tanks are off when you start a stock game. That can't be it, can it? Click. Yes, yes it can. When you tell Vildebeests to fly with drop tanks they carry nothing more deadly than a .303 British MG... and still show as using torpedoes on the main squadron display.

Question for Commonwealth aircraft experts out there - is this right? It does seem plausible that the Vildebeest had one hardpoint, which could carry a torpedo OR a bomb OR a drop tank, and the tank option does give you extra range if you want to do ferry flights or naval search missions.

Question for others smarter and/or wiser than me - are there other aircraft out there that *completely* dump their primary armament when you use drop tanks?

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

So, I belatedly realized today that despite carefully insuring the base HQa had plenty of torps, etc., my Vildebeests weren't flying naval attack.

Hmm... showing "using torpedoes" in the right color, check, naval attack, morale 99, drop tanks on, plenty of supply at the base, good leader...

Yes, some of you have probably already spotted the problem.

I finally clicked on the aircraft info. Wait a second - where are the torpedoes? This thing has guns and a 100gal drop tank! Must be a database error. Exit game, load editor... hmm... that shows a torpedo device. OK, check against stock... same aircraft data. Huh. Maybe they don't have torps in the game in stock? OK, load up Scenario 1... they have torps. WTH? Reload my game. Wait... drop tanks are off when you start a stock game. That can't be it, can it? Click. Yes, yes it can. When you tell Vildebeests to fly with drop tanks they carry nothing more deadly than a .303 British MG... and still show as using torpedoes on the main squadron display.

Question for Commonwealth aircraft experts out there - is this right? It does seem plausible that the Vildebeest had one hardpoint, which could carry a torpedo OR a bomb OR a drop tank, and the tank option does give you extra range if you want to do ferry flights or naval search missions.

Question for others smarter and/or wiser than me - are there other aircraft out there that *completely* dump their primary armament when you use drop tanks?

Lots of aircraft have a reduced weapon load or no weapon load when they carry extra fuel in drop tanks. It isn't just a matter of using the weapon hardpoints for a drop tank - it's the extra weight of the fuel.

Since torpedoes are among the heaviest weapons in the game, a single engine TB is extremely sensitive to extra weight and cannot usually carry a torpedo out to full attack range. The TBD Devastator never seems to fly more than three hexes with a torpedo if the weather is not perfect. Beaufighters and Catalinas are more tolerant of weather while carrying torpedoes.

[Alfred]

Yes, it is WAD.
 
This thread deals with the exact same issue re Vildebeest not carrying torpedoes when flying beyond normal range.
 
Alfred

[Yaab]

Since torpedoes are among the heaviest weapons in the game, a single engine TB is extremely sensitive to extra weight and cannot usually carry a torpedo out to full attack range. The TBD Devastator never seems to fly more than three hexes with a torpedo if the weather is not perfect. Beaufighters and Catalinas are more tolerant of weather while carrying torpedoes.

Now, this is new to me. Devastator with a torpedo has the normal range of 4 hexes. How do you observe it actually flies only three hexes in bad weather?

[BBfanboy]

Since torpedoes are among the heaviest weapons in the game, a single engine TB is extremely sensitive to extra weight and cannot usually carry a torpedo out to full attack range. The TBD Devastator never seems to fly more than three hexes with a torpedo if the weather is not perfect. Beaufighters and Catalinas are more tolerant of weather while carrying torpedoes.

Now, this is new to me. Devastator with a torpedo has the normal range of 4 hexes. How do you observe it actually flies only three hexes in bad weather?

Because I have seen it fly missions that far but had it not fly at all if the target was 4 hexes away and stationary (TFs unloading in port, for example). It may have been something to do with squadron leadership (which was usually good, but not excellent) or the carrier being unable to launch all its aircraft in those conditions. The SBDs and Fighters would launch but not the TBDs.

[Yaab]

Game is deep.

[Yaab]

Devastator load capacity is 1000 points. The 21in Mark XIII torpedo it carries has the load value of 2200 points. So Devastator's load ratio is 220% when carrying the torpedo. When Devastator switches to 2 x 500lb bombs (551 load x 2) it is still loaded over its load value of 1000

Now, the early Japanese TBs have load value of 1764 points, and their torpedo "weigh" less.

BTW, if you look at B-17Ds their load is 6800 points while they carry just 8 x 500lb bombs, which translates into 4400 load points. This may possibly explain partly their high cruise speeds.

Maybe there is an interplay between bomb load, load capacity, engine power and weather. Some aircraft may be severly underpowered.

[RangerJoe]

Devastator load capacity is 1000 points. The 21in Mark XIII torpedo it carries has the load value of 2200 points. So Devastator's load ratio is 220% when carrying the torpedo. When Devastator switches to 2 x 500lb bombs (551 load x 2) it is still loaded over its load value of 1000

Now, the early Japanese TBs have load value of 1764 points, and their torpedo "weigh" less.

BTW, if you look at B-17Ds their load is 6800 points while they carry just 8 x 500lb bombs, which translates into 4400 load points. This may possibly explain partly their high cruise speeds.

Maybe there is an interplay between bomb load, load capacity, engine power and weather. Some aircraft may be severly underpowered.

Yaab, I think that you are confusing the 250 kg bomb with the 500 lb bomb. A 250 kg bomb is around 551 pounds, the 500 lb bomb is just 500 pounds and not 551 pounds.

[Yaab]

Scen001, 1126 with 1128b exe

I hate to say it, but I see smiliar beahviour with fighters on Ground Attack missions.

Basically early USA fighters have 500 load (Warhawk, Airacobra) and carry 500lb GP bomb that has 500 load cost.

Now, a Warhawk unit is in Manila. Weather is Clear, the leader has 55-65 points in all stats, unit's morale is 98 points.

The unit is set to fly a Ground Attack mission at 6k feet to Naga (4 hexes away from Manila), where a very well reconned Japanese column is advancing.
4 hexes is Warhawk's max normal range for Ground Attack mission.

Well, the unit never flies.
There is no message about unit cancelling the mission - NOTHING. The unit just sits there in Manila, chills, and raises its morale to 99 points.

So I check every early Allied fighter model for a model that has some load redundancy and, voila!, the obsolete P-35 unit comes to my rescue. It has 300 load, but its two 100 lb bombs just use 200 load points. Granted, P-35 has a huge normal range (7 hexes), so I am not flying it at its max normal range, but I am curious if they will fly at all.

So I set them to attack Naga from Manila and watch. Their morale is just 62 points.

First try, there is a brief flashing message that the mission is cancelled due to weather (it was cancelled en route, as the P-35 unit lost 1 morale point while one pilot raised his Gnd Attack skill).

But on the next two turns the P-35 flew to Naga with no problems and bombed the Japanese column.

Now, I guess this is how you should read the stats on a Warhawk on Ground Attack mission.

5 hexes (extended range) - will fly at 6k feet as Warhawks carries a smaller 250lb bomb, which has 250 load cost (this means I can bomb Legaspi from Manila)
4 hexes (normal range) - will not fly at 6k or higher with a 500lb bomb/ will fly at 100 feet performing strafing (strafing is still a Ground Attack mission) without the bomb
0-3 hexes (normal range) - will fly at 6k feet or higher with a 500lb bomb ( I personally tested a 2 hex range with attacks on Antimonan).

All this means that the best Allied fighter for Ground Attack is P-38 Lightning as it has huge load redundancies built in (2600 to 1000, and 3200 to 2000 in later models).

[BBfanboy]

First of all, the Aircraft Data says the reduced load for a P-40E is a 250 lb bomb. It should automatically have that for a range 5 mission.

I'm not sure about this, but it could be that a Ground Attack mission for a fighter needs to be below 1999 feet - i.e. low level. I always use mine at 1000 feet and have my pilots trained in LowG plus Strafe. If the enemy has no AA at all (like an HQ unit alone), I might set the fighters to 100 feet to strafe but they will both bomb and strafe. I think they do both if set at 1000 feet too.

My Philippine P-40Es once sank a Japanese CA (Chokai) with their 500 pound bombs and set at 1000 feet, range 4. The aircraft strafed and then the bombs could be seen splashing or hitting while the strafing (shell hits) was still going on.

[Chris21wen]

I'm unsure what the problem is. I've given this a quick test and found no problems.

Turn 1 set Naga to Japan and but an inf div there set to move north towards Manila. Set two P-40e groups to ground attack, one in Manila other in Clark, morale <60. Both groups continued to ground attack for 10 days. They only stopped turn 11 when the div had moved out of Naga AND had stopped moving AND I split the div into rgt. They stopped attacking because intel lost contact with them. Note the unit had to stop and I had to split it t as size and movement make them esier to spot. The groups now automatically switch to ground attacking units in Appari and Vigan

Screenshot 2025-04-25 074050.jpg (31.29 KiB) Viewed 263 times

I think your problem lies with spotting. There could be other factors at play but it's got nothing to do with aircraft or air groups that I can see.


Afternoon Air attack on 33rd Division, at 81,81 (Naga)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 18

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
96 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 500 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 33rd Division, at 81,81 (Naga)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 17

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 10000 feet *
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 lb GP Bomb

Next day
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 33rd Division, at 81,81 (Naga)

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 38

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 10000 feet *
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 lb GP Bomb
20 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 500 lb GP Bomb

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 15, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 33rd Division, at 81,81 (Naga)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 31 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 20

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 6000 feet *
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 33rd Division, at 81,81 (Naga)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 24 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 20

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 500 lb GP Bomb

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 17, 41
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Morning Air attack on 8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment, at 82,73 (Aparri)

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 24 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 20

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 6000 feet *
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kanno Det , at 80,73 (Vigan)

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 1 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 0 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 25

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x P-40E Warhawk bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 500 lb GP Bomb

[Yaab]

Chris21wen, which scenario and game version did you use for the test?

There must be something else at play. I mostly rebase all my aircraft to Manila, which is airfield 3 and has about 142 aviation support (for land based aircaft) + 30 aviation support for floatplane. My total aircraft count in Manila (land+floatplane) is 130. All my P40Es are based in Manila. My P-35 unit is also in Manila. Naga is reconned each turn by at least two recon units. I mostly set one Warhawk unit on Ground Attack and set remaining fighter units on CAP.

But this means Manila also handles all CAP patrols with lots of fighters scrambling. Maybe this interferes with Ground Attack routines? There is no engine or admin overstack of the Manila airfield.

BTW, do you use Commander Discretion orders or order your units to Gnd Attack Naga directly? I use direct orders to Gnd Attack Naga.

[BBfanboy]

Sounds like you have a lot of air units at a level 3 AF. That could lead to issues with 'base administration', even with USAAFFE (or whatever spaghetti soup it is) present. So some of the air units are not getting air support because it never gets to their squadrons (only 4 would be covered at a level 3 AF). That would affect bombing up and refueling.

[Chris21wen]

Chris21wen, which scenario and game version did you use for the test?

There must be something else at play. I mostly rebase all my aircraft to Manila, which is airfield 3 and has about 142 aviation support (for land based aircaft) + 30 aviation support for floatplane. My total aircraft count in Manila (land+floatplane) is 130. All my P40Es are based in Manila. My P-35 unit is also in Manila. Naga is reconned each turn by at least two recon units. I mostly set one Warhawk unit on Ground Attack and set remaining fighter units on CAP.

But this means Manila also handles all CAP patrols with lots of fighters scrambling. Maybe this interferes with Ground Attack routines? There is no engine or admin overstack of the Manila airfield.

BTW, do you use Commander Discretion orders or order your units to Gnd Attack Naga directly? I use direct orders to Gnd Attack Naga.

Latest 28b. All I dis was use the editor to make Naga Japanese and move the inf div from japan to it. Head to head in game I stood down off all air activity for both sides other than the two P40e groups, one I moved to Clark, both where set to ground attack at Naga. The div was set to move to Atimonan. I did nothing to stop opening invasions, e.g. Vigan, Aparri and Legaspi happened.

When the div moved out of Naga they kept attacking the div. They finally stopped when the div split, everytime, and reverted to commanders decision. They then attacked something else at Vigan or Aparri but I could reset them as a target and if I set one of the rgt to move then the commander could pick that unit. Stopping them moving could also cause this but not everytime.

I'm sure you realise that if you set the P40e to use drop tanks then it cannot carry bombs! Because it cannot carry bombs it will fly no ground attack missions but it will retain the hex as a target. Consequently intel on the LCU will drop and low intel will prevent ground attacks and it will also not switch to commanders decision. Even is you stop using drop tanks you will need to re-select the target hex even through it says it's still a target or change to commanders decision. Once it flies it starts to gain intel again.

I tested nothing else, air intercepts, bombing airfields, command ranges and the miriad of other thing that prevent flight. Other than weather and above I can see nothing that prevents ground attacks.

[Chris21wen]

CAP settings do not prevent other air ops unless they are no aircraft left. Using 100% CAP will stop ground attacks or any other mission for that matter. but if you use 30% then in a perfect situation you will have 70% for the attack.

[Yaab]

Drop tanks disabled.

The selected Warhawk unit performing Ground Attack is always set to 100% Ground Attack (they mostly fly 100% of available aircraft IF they fly)

I see you put aJapanese division in Naga for the test. In the GC the Japanese column in Japanese-held Naga consists of an armored unit, infantry regiment and engineer regiment. LCUs have their individual DL ( recon aircaft has to pass a check on every one of them), so even if Naga base has 9/10 DL after my recons have photographed it, it may mean DLs on the LCU may be lower or non-existent. My P-35s only bombed the infantry regiment in Naga so the two LCUs had probably lower DLs.

I will try to fly more recons per turn over Naga to maximise DL even more and see how it goes from there.

[BBfanboy]

Not sure if it makes a difference, but if I plan to do ground attack I click directly on the LCU icon when I set my Recon missions.
I think (from past discussions) that if the LCUs are moving they are easier to spot. That might mean that sitting in a base with forts gives them lots of cover.

[Yaab]

Damn, I have been clicking on a base's flag icon for the last 14 years.

If nothing works I will send my ultimate armored recon aircraft: a B-17 at 1000 feet. Any 7.7mm AAMG device will shoot at it, thus upping an LCU's DL even more.

[Yaab]

Not sure if it makes a difference, but if I plan to do ground attack I click directly on the LCU icon when I set my Recon missions.
I think (from past discussions) that if the LCUs are moving they are easier to spot. That might mean that sitting in a base with forts gives them lots of cover.

Interesting. That would explain the "teleporting" LCU phenomenon. An enemy unit in an adjacent hex is seen moving since the hex has a minor road. And then the LCU stops moving because the last 23 miles, the unit is walking (very slowly) in the target hex which doesn't have a linking minor road in the same direction. For example, this situation in China, with the Japanese coming from SE to attack the Chinese stack.

[Chris21wen]

Damn, I have been clicking on a base's flag icon for the last 14 years.

If nothing works I will send my ultimate armored recon aircraft: a B-17 at 1000 feet. Any 7.7mm AAMG device will shoot at it, thus upping an LCU's DL even more.

I don't think it makes any difference. By default a ground attack is just that against troops present in the hex. I don't think I knowing click on them, usually just the hex.