Soviet Rifle Squad 43 Manpower increase to 11Men [ID:797]

[Wiedrock]

The normal Rifle Squad size changes in 09/1943 from 9Men to 11Men.

Rifle Squad 43.png (289.08 KiB) Viewed 1429 times

Some interesting note to history I recently came across.
There were plenty of different Reduced Strenght TOEs the Soviets used, starting from mid 1943 and going till the end of the war (Soviets preferred to built more and more Gun/Mortar/AFV units, so manpower for Rifle Units was reduced vastly). So there were TOEs for 4k-6k Rifle Divisions. Squad sizes went often down to 6-8 Men. Meanwhile in game there's 32k Corps with 3x5k Brigades (nothing reduced) assigned with 11Men Squads.
Side note to the increase to 11 Men squads in late 1943 (in game) - which historically can only be found in a single "Reduced strength TOE from Aug 1943", caused someone to decide to use 11Men Squads starting from 09/1943 for Soviets in WITE2. But this increase of Squad size was bound to less Squads so a Reduction of manpower density per Division/Corps/Regiment.

The only official quote I found in the RAH:

With insufficient replacements available to keep these units up to full strength, the Stavka adopted the only other recourse available: an official acceptance of reduced size. On 22 August 1943 a ‘reduced strength' variant of the basic infantry regiment TO&E (No. 04/550) was authorized. Under this new table the basic building block, the rifle platoon, was reduced to the platoon leader and three squads, each of a sergeant and ten privates. Each squad was provided with a single light machine gun, to give the rifle company a total of nine such weapons, compared to eighteen in the original organization. The company's 50mm mortar platoon was deleted entirely from the organization, although the machine gun section remained. At the battalion level the machine gun company and the mortar company were both reduced to two platoons (six weapons), while less significant changes were made to the regimental elements. In sum, the infantry regiment was reduced from its original strength of 2,443 men to 2,017.

Which explicitly states that this change is related to a reduction in Manpower per Regiment (and in return in Div/Corps size).
Here some Reduced strenght examples from June 1943. As I understand this, there were three possible new arrangements. One with 9Men Squad and two others with 7Men Squads.
Here another proposed Reduced TOE from 23 Nov 1943. There the Squads went down to 6Men. Google translated it, I added notes. Correct my translation if there's something wrong with it.

Nov_1943_Reduced TOE.png (1.36 MiB) Viewed 1429 times

Sadly I couldn't find the TOE/order of the 22 Aug 1943 TOE change which supposedly caused the 11Men Squads. Every citing of this Document (Red Army Handbook and also found in 2 Forums) never shows it/links it. But as the other ones may show there's no reason to increase the whole Soviet Army to use 11Men Squads judging from the things I know so far.

Following an example. As I already pointed out the SMG Squads themselves have too many Men per Squad too. So this goes on top of this Threads subject. As you can see, using this late war Corps structure, there is up to 10% too much CV when assuming the Reduction of SMG Squad manpower sizes to 9Men as a general thing. If not then it's still about 8% too much CV.
Niehorsters idea of the Rifle Company in 1944

reworked squads1.png (475.83 KiB) Viewed 1429 times

Further note, the basic Rifle Squad 43 is also used for the late TOEs of Mot/Mech Formations, before that they use the 9Men Rifle Squad (+) with 2LMGs (which also may not be 100% correct since some Sources state 8Men Squads). Not sure in how far that reflects reality, both in increase of Manpower per Squad and in simultaneously reducing the firepower by reducing the LMGs.
And it continues with Tank Brigades which used 9Men [1LMG] but in game suddenly use 11Men Squads.
Also see: http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/RedArmy/RedArmyorgs.htm

[Wiedrock]

Sadly I couldn't find the TOE/order of the 22 Aug 1943 TOE change which supposedly caused the 11Men Squads. Every citing of this Document (Red Army Handbook and also found in 2 Forums) never shows it/links it. But as the other ones may show there's no reason to increase the whole Soviet Army to use 11Men Squads judging from the things I know so far.

Here someone listed the stated TOE. Counting the Squads you get
11Men x 3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co x 3Bat x 3Reg = 2673Men in 243Sq
while ingame we are at least at:

• 11Men x 180Sq = 1980Men
• 9Men x 144Sq = 1296Men

= 3276Men in at least 324Sq

Nothing reduced. Just increased Men in Squads by ~22.5% compared to the reduced TOE and by ~12.3% compared to keeping the 9Men Squads in normal TOEs.

Here another proposed Reduced TOE from 23 Nov 1943. There the Squads went down to 6Men. Google translated it, I added notes. Correct my translation if there's something wrong with it.

Here someone listed a similar change for Summer 1944.

[Wiedrock]

Motorized Rifle battalion (Bech Brigade)
These Rifle Squads actually only had 8Men, as can be seen in this posts Chart. This matches with numbers of other sources, like this one and that one.

In game those Squads are 9Men Rifle Squad (+). Those change in 1944 to Rifle Squad 43. Here a comparison what's going on, note the decrease in Support and the increase in Manpower in Squads.

TOE-Support to Squad.png (257.13 KiB) Viewed 1337 times

There are plenty of other TOEs showing the same behaviour of reducing Support Elements once the Rifle Squad 43 (11Men) gets introduced into their TOEs.

Infantry/Rifle:
Following an example of a Rifle Corps starting to change to the Rifle Squad 43 already in 1943 (since the 42-Squad is obsolete/scrapped). Meaning the Corps size will eventuelly increase by 540*2=1080Men in Squads.
Additionally we can observe the same "Support fall off" in the TOE once the Rifle Squad 43 (11Men) is officially introduced in summer of 1944.

Rifle Corps_1Men.png (491.97 KiB) Viewed 1337 times

---

Those are just two of many examples where this 9Men -> 11Men change suddenly kicks out hundrets/up to thousands of Support Manpower and converts them into Squad Manpower. For sure there was restructuring of TOEs, but as pointed out the 11Men for multiple reasons/in multiple TOEs are simply in the wrong place. Especially when applied to all TOEs and not the Reduced TOEs which are currently not being used.

[Wiedrock]

Found the Reduced Strength TOE (BArch RH 2/1283, page 226) for the Rifle Division which causes the Decision to go to 11Men Squads (by the Devs, for all Divisions).
Interestingly the SMG Squad gets reduced from 10 to 8 Men.
It's a translation from a captured Document, so no intel, only minor Soviet math issues mentioned by the translator.

It remains, too large Squads or too many Squads, therefore too few Support - ignoring the additionally reduced sized SMG Squads and not looking at anything else...

Reduced TOE_RH_2_1283_0226.jpg (434.97 KiB) Viewed 1285 times

[Wiedrock]

Some interesting note to history I recently came across.
There were plenty of different Reduced Strenght TOEs the Soviets used, starting from mid 1943 and going till the end of the war (Soviets preferred to built more and more Gun/Mortar/AFV units, so manpower for Rifle Units was reduced vastly). So there were TOEs for 4k-6k Rifle Divisions. Squad sizes went often down to 6-8 Men. Meanwhile in game there's 32k Corps with 3x5k Brigades (nothing reduced) assigned with 11Men Squads.
Side note to the increase to 11 Men squads in late 1943 (in game) - which historically can only be found in a single "Reduced strength TOE from Aug 1943", caused someone to decide to use 11Men Squads starting from 09/1943 for Soviets in WITE2. But this increase of Squad size was bound to less Squads so a Reduction of manpower density per Division/Corps/Regiment.

Implemented reducing Rifle Squad 43 size from 11 to 9 in WOTE in combination with reduction of SMG Squad size 11Men→10Men and SMG+ size 11Men→9Men.
Changeshave been automatically calculated using this Google Docs Sheet, using normal rounding rules.
TOE/OB Change List:

Code: Select all

[id]	[name]	[suffix]	[current support] → [new support]
2081	42	Guards Tank Corps	208	→	210
2082	43a	Guards Tank Corps	222	→	224
2083	43b	Guards Tank Corps	353	→	371
2084	44	Guards Tank Corps	309	→	327
2086	42a	Tank Corps	121	→	123
2087	42b	Tank Corps	208	→	210
2088	43a	Tank Corps	221	→	223
2089	43b	Tank Corps	353	→	371
2090	44	Tank Corps	307	→	325
2091	45	Tank Corps	307	→	325
2093	42b LL	Tank Corps	208	→	210
2094	43a LL	Guards Tank Corps	222	→	224
2101	42a	Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2102	42b	Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2103	43a	Tank Brigade	29	→	FALSE
2104	43b	Tank Brigade	33	→	35
2106	42a British LL	Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2107	42b British LL	Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2109	42a American LL	Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2110	42b American LL	Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2111	43a American LL	Tank Brigade	29	→	FALSE
2112	43b American LL	Tank Brigade	33	→	35
2114	45	Guards Heavy Tank Brigade	80	→	82
2115	42	Heavy Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2116	45	Heavy Tank Brigade	45	→	47
2118	42	Flame Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2119	44	Flame Tank Brigade	33	→	35
2121	44	Light SU Brigade	27	→	28
2122	45	Medium SU Brigade	27	→	28
2123	45	Heavy SU Brigade	27	→	28
2126	42	Destroyer Anti-Tank Brigade	50	→	FALSE
2133	44	Heavy Tank Regiment	8	→	FALSE
2137	43	Separate Tank Regiment	14	→	FALSE
2138	44a	Separate Tank Regiment	8	→	FALSE
2139	44b	Separate Tank Regiment	7	→	FALSE
2147	42	Destroyer Anti-Tank Regiment	16	→	FALSE
2153	44	Light SU Regiment	5	→	FALSE
2156	44	Medium SU Regiment	5	→	FALSE
2159	44	Heavy SU Regiment	5	→	FALSE
2181	42	Guards Mechanized Corps	413	→	415
2182	43	Guards Mechanized Corps	361	→	363
2183	44	Guards Mechanized Corps	424	→	426
2184	45	Guards Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2186	44 LL	Guards Mechanzied Corps	424	→	426
2187	45 LL	Guards Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2189	42	Mechanized Corps	413	→	415
2190	43	Mechanized Corps	361	→	363
2191	44	Mechanized Corps	424	→	426
2192	45	Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2194	42 LL	Mechanized Corps	413	→	415
2195	43 LL	Mechanized Corps	361	→	363
2196	44 LL	Mechanized Corps	424	→	426
2197	45 LL	Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2202	42	Mechanized Brigade	83	→	84
2203	43	Mechanized Brigade	73	→	FALSE
2207	41	Motorized Brigade	57	→	FALSE
2208	42	Motorized Brigade	57	→	FALSE
2248	42a	Mountain Rifle Corps	850	→	855
2249	42b	Mountain Rifle Corps	766	→	771
2250	42c	Mountain Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2251	43	Mountain Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2252	44	Mountain Rifle Corps	474	→	564
2253	45	Mountain Rifle Corps	435	→	529
2257	41c	Mountain Rifle Division	279	→	280
2258	42a	Mountain Rifle Division	304	→	305
2259	42b	Mountain Rifle Division	220	→	221
2260	42c	Mountain Rifle Division	181	→	182
2261	43	Mountain Rifle Division	181	→	182
2262	44	Mountain Rifle Division	158	→	188
2263	45	Mountain Rifle Division	145	→	176
2265	45	Mountain Brigade	90	→	99
2267	43	Guards Airborne Corps	630	→	638
2268	44	Guards Airborne Corps	564	→	658
2269	45	Guards Airborne Corps	525	→	651
2271	43 Reduced	Guards Airborne Corps	314	→	318
2272	44 Reduced	Guards Airborne Corps	300	→	352
2273	45 Reduced	Guards Airborne Corps	300	→	364
2275	43	Guards Airborne Division	210	→	213
2276	44	Guards Airborne Division	188	→	219
2277	45	Guards Airborne Division	175	→	217
2280	41b	Airborne Brigade	33	→	FALSE
2281	42	Airborne Brigade	33	→	FALSE
2283	44	Airborne Brigade	58	→	70
2286	41b	Naval Infantry Brigade	93	→	94
2287	42	Naval Infantry Brigade	120	→	121
2295	42	Ski Battalion	[20	→	21] #was already modded - should have 8Squads - see separate Thread
2302	41a	Guards Rifle Corps	766	→	770
2303	41b	Guards Rifle Corps	779	→	784
2304	42a	Guards Rifle Corps	723	→	729
2305	42b	Guards Rifle Corps	766	→	772
2306	43	Guards Rifle Corps	630	→	638
2307	44	Guards Rifle Corps	564	→	658
2308	45	Guards Rifle Corps	525	→	651
2310	43 Reduced	Guards Rifle Corps	314	→	318
2311	44 Reduced	Guards Rifle Corps	300	→	352
2312	45 Reduced	Guards Rifle Corps	300	→	364
2314	42a	Rifle Corps	850	→	855
2315	42b	Rifle Corps	766	→	771
2316	42c	Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2317	43	Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2318	44	Rifle Corps	474	→	564
2319	45	Rifle Corps	435	→	529
2321	43 Reduced	Rifle Corps	325	→	328
2322	44 Reduced	Rifle Corps	284	→	341
2323	45 Reduced	Rifle Corps	260	→	318
2326	41b	Guards Rifle Division	279	→	280
2327	42a	Guards Rifle Division	305	→	308
2328	42b	Guards Rifle Division	220	→	223
2329	43	Guards Rifle Division	210	→	213
2330	44	Guards Rifle Division	188	→	219
2331	45	Guards Rifle Division	175	→	217
2335	41c	Rifle Division	279	→	280
2336	42a	Rifle Division	304	→	305
2337	42b	Rifle Division	220	→	221
2338	42c	Rifle Division	181	→	182
2339	43	Rifle Division	181	→	182
2340	44	Rifle Division	158	→	188
2341	45	Rifle Division	145	→	176
2348	41c Reduced Shtat	RD	90	→	FALSE
2349	42a Reduced Shtat	RD	75	→	FALSE
2350	42b Reduced Shtat	RD	96	→	FALSE
2351	42c Reduced Shtat	RD	96	→	FALSE
2352	43 Reduced Shtat	RD	96	→	FALSE
2359	41	Rifle Brigade	102	→	103
2360	42a	Rifle Brigade	92	→	93
2361	42b	Rifle Brigade	124	→	125
2362	43	Rifle Brigade	124	→	125
2363	44	Rifle Brigade	124	→	140
2587	44	Yug. Partisan Division	110	→	127
2588	44b	Yug. Partisan Battalion	10	→	13
2590	45	Yug. Infantry Division	285	→	311

[Wiedrock]

Found some example of the rare'ish occurrence of 12→11Men Squad change by (further) reducing/changing the TOE, kicking out 1Squad per Platoon in late 1942.
It is possible (and likely tho) that there is an issue and it is actually 9→11, as seen in the second mentioning attached to this report.
Viva Los Confusion!

But it remains, that bigger Squads are (usually) related to less Squads and smaller/reduced Divisions.

Reduced_example_RH_2_2516_0035.jpg (369.82 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Another example of the 1st Baltic Front (damn rly each Front did their own thing ) from late Summer 1943 about reduced Divisional sizes. They also scrapped 1 Squad per Platoon but kept the 9Men per Squad.

Rifle Squad 43_example_RH_2_2517_0035.jpg (141.51 KiB) Viewed 543 times

And following just for info an example of the southern Finnish Frontline, where the Squad eneded up being 6Men (and only having 2 Platoons with 3 Squads each).

Rifle Squad 43_reduced fin 1944_RH_2_2517_0056.jpg (183.17 KiB) Viewed 541 times

And another Intel report giving varying Squad sizes between 8-10Men.

Rifle Squad 43 example_RH_2_2517_0182.jpg (179.46 KiB) Viewed 537 times

It appears as if seriously at least every Front cooked their completely own soup.
Most Company sizes seem to have been reduced over time in mid 43 till mid 44 from ~141Men to 60-70Men with varying Squad compositions. All other assets of the Divisions seem to have been largely untouched (at least theoretical TOE-wise), but less Men as intended always ended up reducing PTRDs and 50mm mortars massively. Then in mid 1944 there was at least one official (maybe two ...maybe even again different for Fronts) orders given to refill Divisions to 6000Men and/or 7000Men. This Manpower increase from the usually reported ~4-5k Lead to an increase of Company sizes from the mentioned ~60-70 to ~100+. The Manpower was made available due to retaking territories and Partisans (+ I assume freeing POWs).
What's not yet clear to me is when the 4 Squads of which 2 had 2LMG and 2 had 1LMG part of the TOE was on paper rly replaced with a "normal" 1LMG per Squad Setup (ignoring here that sometimes/often 1/3rd of Platoons (sometimes Companies) were fully SMG'rized ...theoretically-practically ...officially-inofficially).

[MechFO]

It appears as if seriously at least every Front cooked their completely own soup.
Most Company sizes seem to have been reduced over time in mid 43 till mid 44 from ~141Men to 60-70Men with varying Squad compositions. All other assets of the Divisions seem to have been largely untouched (at least theoretical TOE-wise), but less Men as intended always ended up reducing PTRDs and 50mm mortars massively. Then in mid 1944 there was at least one official (maybe two ...maybe even again different for Fronts) orders given to refill Divisions to 6000Men and/or 7000Men. This Manpower increase from the usually reported ~4-5k Lead to an increase of Company sizes from the mentioned ~60-70 to ~100+. The Manpower was made available due to retaking territories and Partisans (+ I assume freeing POWs).
What's not yet clear to me is when the 4 Squads of which 2 had 2LMG and 2 had 1LMG part of the TOE was on paper rly replaced with a "normal" 1LMG per Squad Setup (ignoring here that sometimes/often 1/3rd of Companies were fully SMG'rized ...theoretically-practically ...officially-inofficially).

Everybody did this. Going down this path is an endless Rabbit hole. F.e. German Divisions were in many ways de facto free in how to organise themselves. Squad organisations were certainly most of the time not corresponding to TOE. On Germandocs there are some Erfahrungsberichte where Divisions show how they organised themselves in practice.

Depicting one side according to official TOE while trying to depict actual TOE on the other side is IMO not the way to go.

[Wiedrock]

Depicting one side according to official TOE while trying to depict actual TOE on the other side is IMO not the way to go.

That's not what I am trying to do. The Soviets did this by amending TOEs according to the situation.

The issue is to figure out what's the actual TOE for the Soviets at certain points in time, since some changes (although only applied to some Divisions/Divisional sizes/Fronts) were "official" TOE amendments according to which the strength reports would have to be made. Germans reported according to their TOEs but could build the Subunits however they liked with their Kampfgruppe and so on. Where Germans simply removed one Battalion of a Division, Soviets had 2,3 or more different solutions ending in varying Squad sizes "officially". So one Division may have had 11Men, another the regular 9, but others 6 or 7Men Squad sizes, while all kept similar Regimental/Company sizes.

Otherwise the 12/1942 Soviet TOEs are about the "last TOEs" which were new/changing the TOE numbers with the 500s (Guards Divisions) and 550s (Regular Divisions) ...ignoring the (not in Eurpe used Regular Division December TOE 05/40). So the Question lies in which "official" changes to apply to all Divisions in game in 1943++. Like in this Threads subject ...where is the official order/amendment removing the Squads with 2 LMGs from the TOE(s) which was introduced in 12/1942???
The ridiculous thing is that all the "reduced TOEs" kept the same TOE numbers....

I "know"/read about some "official" TOEs from 07.1943 (no exact info, massive SMG additions, but also adding loads of Reduced strength proposals during this time), 08.1943 ("reduced" proposal causing the 11Men Squad, 1LMG (while also reducing Squad numbers)), 12.1943 (using only 2 Battalions per Regiment).
To name a few.

EDIT: Found a German Intel "conclusion" about the subject. They assume the reduced variants all being emergency TOEs/variants as expected, but still "official" created by the Fronts (or below) according to the situation.
Further I've also found some weird proposal of varying Divisional sizes, probably related to reports from ~early Summer 1944 which requested to bring Divisions up to 6k or 7k Men.

[Wiedrock]

This may be one of the best I've found so far, intel about a document containing info about an officer training course from October-December 1943.

Company size is with 143Men almost the same as in the original 12/1942 TOEs which was 148Men. So it seems to be not some type of "reduced" Company at least.
Squads are still 9Men but only 1LMG+1SMG.

Rifle Squad 43_LMG reduction_RH_2_2517_0152.jpg (295.16 KiB) Viewed 493 times

And further example, again from training course "Wolchow front", slightly reduced Company, supposed to be used in reduced Regiments of varying size.
Again 9Men with 1LMG+1SMG per Squad.

Rifle Squad 43_LMG reduction_RH_2_2517_0158.jpg (342.16 KiB) Viewed 492 times

The bad thing is that it does not mention the additional 1/3rd of Platoons being Assault/SMG Platoons...bravo ...

Following is about the same as the prior one, again based on a Stalin order from mid 1943 and being used in training courses.
The Squads is 9Men [1SMG+1LMG] and the Squad numbers seems to have remained the same... 4Sq x 3Co x 3Pl x 3Btl (x 3Rgt) = 324Squads.
It may/must have been related to reduced Divisional TOEs, but in this version the Squads basically only lost one LMG (I wonder why?) and the rest were reductions in other "small" weapons (e.g. MMGs, 50mm Mortars) either by removing or restructuring.

Rifle Squad 43_LMG reduction_RH_2_2517_0194+196.jpg (1.34 MiB) Viewed 348 times