The First Dance

Master grand tactical combat as a Cold War force commander in this data-rich simulation. Plan and issue orders in asynchronous WEGO turns, leveraging real-world maps and complex features like Electronic Warfare and Air Assaults to outthink your enemy.

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CapnDarwin
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Re: The First Dance

Post by CapnDarwin »

GiveWarAchance wrote: Sat Dec 27, 2025 2:52 am I tried this twice and got wiped out by the Soviet attack choppers.
The AI cheats by knowing exactly where the player starting positions are and we are not allowed to redeploy at all. The first turn and onwards is watching swarms of choppers fly directly to where my units are and then blow up the tanks and bradleys one after another turn after turn. It is depressing.

I regret buying this game. AI cheating just kills the game.
There is no AI cheating in the game, and the AI does not "know your locations"; it has to spot you as you do them. The AI follows a battle plan that sets initial directions and actions for units to move with. Most scenarios allow the player to have some adjustment to their starting locations. This one does not. I am going to note this setup issue in our Monday call, as I would like to see some additional routes north and south of those two setup zones added so the player has options. One of the Soviet plans has helos driving west of the objective area on a sweep, and I will bet money that is the plan you ran into, and it does put Mi-24s right in your face as you try to move forward. I will also note this to the team as a need for alternate routes.

Also answered on Steam with more info.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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CapnDarwin
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Re: The First Dance

Post by CapnDarwin »

Bemused wrote: Sat Dec 27, 2025 7:14 pm Darwin,

They may be treated as high rate of fire but, in my limited experience of actually seeing them shoot (which is very rarely as noted above), I have never seen one do any actual damage. I am aware they are shooting because of the different sound effect but no hits follow. I wonder then if the AI is choosing not to prioritise firing them because they are so ineffective?

Did this not come out in testing or did a bug slip in on launch? I have paused playing this otherwise excellent sim until this is addressed.
I see my Brads shooting and killing enemy units all the time with 25mm. There is an issue with their engagement of infantry units, and we will be working to address it in an update. Also, make sure to check your unit SOPs for the engagement range so they can deal with enemy units based on the situation and terrain.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
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rmeckman
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Re: The First Dance

Post by rmeckman »

GiveWarAchance wrote: Sat Dec 27, 2025 2:52 am I tried this twice and got wiped out by the Soviet attack choppers.
The AI cheats by knowing exactly where the player starting positions are and we are not allowed to redeploy at all. The first turn and onwards is watching swarms of choppers fly directly to where my units are and then blow up the tanks and bradleys one after another turn after turn. It is depressing.
Do do think playing this scenario as NATO is a rather brutal introduction to the game for newer players. The 11 ACR units have a lot of things going against them, so even experienced players are challenged. When I first started playing Southern Storm, I also felt like I had to adjust my expectations of friendly casualties compared to some other games. Even when you win, your forces can end up in pretty bad shape.

Once there are reports of enemy helicopters, using hasty moves to approach the victory-point locations is very risky. Your vehicles are easy targets bunched up on the roads. The Stinger sections in each company also become very important. I move them to locations where they can provide cover for the rest of the company. For Troop A, it is reasonable to halt the column under cover to wait for the Stinger reinforcement at 0100. The Bradleys and Abrams are a threat to helicopters if they are stationary in good cover.

I think the Soviet choppers are more aggressive in some scenario battle plans than they are in others.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by CapnDarwin »

Starting with the first in the timeline of the "war", you may want to use the filters, start with Easy and drop off the Large scenarios as well, play A Time to Dance, and the other Easy level scenarios to get used to the game, then go back for more challenging scenarios. It is listed as a Veteran scenario based on the challenge it presents.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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Bemused
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Bemused »

CapnDarwin wrote: Sat Dec 27, 2025 9:17 pm I see my Brads shooting and killing enemy units all the time with 25mm. There is an issue with their engagement of infantry units, and we will be working to address it in an update. Also, make sure to check your unit SOPs for the engagement range so they can deal with enemy units based on the situation and terrain.
It's not just a Bradley issue. I have described above that BMPs are also reluctant to use their 30mm autocannons. There are certainly issues with autocannon use against infantry. From my experience, there are also issues in their use against light-skinned vehicles where TOW is preferred to autocannon at short ranges.

As for SOP I had them set to IFV Stay and Fight. I sometimes tried IFV Ambush. I tried both Support Passengers and Hide nearby to see of there were any differences. Fire Discipline was set to Maximum Range as I wanted to engage the enemy as soon as possible. I presume there is no need to set this to Poin Blank in order to get them to use Autocannon?
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Re: The First Dance

Post by SgtZdog »

Bemused wrote: Sun Dec 28, 2025 12:03 pm As for SOP I had them set to IFV Stay and Fight. I sometimes tried IFV Ambush. I tried both Support Passengers and Hide nearby to see of there were any differences. Fire Discipline was set to Maximum Range as I wanted to engage the enemy as soon as possible. I presume there is no need to set this to Point Blank in order to get them to use Autocannon?
Bradleys (or any other armed transport for that matter) will not shoot while stationary if the current order uses Hide Nearby and they have living passengers that are dismounted in the hex. Setting to Point Blank vs Maximum Range will have no impact on this.
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Tcao
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Tcao »

CapnDarwin wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 12:43 am For the points above from Tcao:

3. All of those weapons are considered high rate of fire systems and are treated as such in the game engine.

Have a Happy Holidays!
OK from Wiki M2 BFV has 900 rds of chain gun ammo. 2200 rds of 7.62 mmg ammo. In FCCW, it is
90 chain gun
120 VSW

every min it fires either 1 chain gun burst or 1 vsw burst. That is either 10 rds of chaingun or 19 rds of MG? per minute?
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Tcao
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Tcao »

Bemused wrote: Wed Dec 24, 2025 5:02 pm You will see this time that my Bradleys did fire some chain gun but not very much. This may be because it does diddly-squat. The combat results flash up quick enough but I kept a close eye out for kills from the 25mm. I didn't see a one so is the AI not firing it because it knows it is ineffective?
The reason for that is a 3 hex distance tigger. In <1500m 3 hex distance the IFV will use ATGM against other IFV, APC,ATGM AFV and soft skin vehicles , longer than 1500m it will refuse to use ATGM against targets mentioned above, instead it will use chaingun as primary weapon.
Only after ATGM depleted it will switch back to chaingun to engage other IFVs
Last edited by Tcao on Tue Dec 30, 2025 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tcao
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Tcao »

rmeckman wrote: Sat Dec 27, 2025 9:18 pm
GiveWarAchance wrote: Sat Dec 27, 2025 2:52 am I tried this twice and got wiped out by the Soviet attack choppers.
The AI cheats by knowing exactly where the player starting positions are and we are not allowed to redeploy at all. The first turn and onwards is watching swarms of choppers fly directly to where my units are and then blow up the tanks and bradleys one after another turn after turn. It is depressing.
Do do think playing this scenario as NATO is a rather brutal introduction to the game for newer players. The 11 ACR units have a lot of things going against them, so even experienced players are challenged. When I first started playing Southern Storm, I also felt like I had to adjust my expectations of friendly casualties compared to some other games. Even when you win, your forces can end up in pretty bad shape.

Once there are reports of enemy helicopters, using hasty moves to approach the victory-point locations is very risky. Your vehicles are easy targets bunched up on the roads. The Stinger sections in each company also become very important. I move them to locations where they can provide cover for the rest of the company. For Troop A, it is reasonable to halt the column under cover to wait for the Stinger reinforcement at 0100. The Bradleys and Abrams are a threat to helicopters if they are stationary in good cover.

I think the Soviet choppers are more aggressive in some scenario battle plans than they are in others.
+1
Another tip in case the player has to move his formation forward under the threat of Hinds: change the Stinger team's SOP.

Change the Stinger dismount when enemy closer than 10 hex. So even they are moving, they will stop and deploy then engage Hinds with SPSAM
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Re: The First Dance

Post by HaughtKarl »

Oh man that's a great idea with the Stingers. I didn't even occur to me to try something like that and it left me scratching my head on how in the heck our these guys going to defend our units if they don't have enough time to come to a stop, grab their Stingers and fire away.

I wouldn't mind watching this scenario get played out by the pros on the next Matrix stream.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Bemused »

Tcao wrote: Tue Dec 30, 2025 5:51 pm The reason for that is a 3 hex distance tigger. In <1500m 3 hex distance the IFV will use ATGM against other IFV, APC,ATGM AFV and soft skin vehicles , longer than 1500m it will refuse to use ATGM against targets mentioned above, instead it will use chaingun as primary weapon.
Only after ATGM depleted it will switch back to chaingun to engage other IFVs
That makes sense for any fire at 3 hex range or more. I had plenty of turns with the Bradleys parked adjacent to enemy units where they still preferred MGs over the 25mm.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by WildCatNL »

Tcao wrote: Tue Dec 30, 2025 5:43 pm OK from Wiki M2 BFV has 900 rds of chain gun ammo. 2200 rds of 7.62 mmg ammo. In FCCW, it is
90 chain gun
120 VSW

every min it fires either 1 chain gun burst or 1 vsw burst. That is either 10 rds of chaingun or 19 rds of MG? per minute?
Bemused wrote: Tue Dec 30, 2025 11:15 pm I had plenty of turns with the Bradleys parked adjacent to enemy units where they still preferred MGs over the 25mm.
We currently are discussing a fix for 'fast fire weapons' not firing more than once in ground combat, and into more diverse combat responses when to weapon systems seem to have similar impact (MG vs 25mm) on targets.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Jagger2002 »

The reason for that is a 3 hex distance tigger. In <1500m 3 hex distance the IFV will use ATGM against other IFV, APC,ATGM AFV and soft skin vehicles , longer than 1500m it will refuse to use ATGM against targets mentioned above, instead it will use chaingun as primary weapon.
Shouldn't the 25mm chain gun be the primary weapon against the vast majority of IFV, APC,ATGM AFV and soft skin vehicles under 1500m? It should take out most easily. I would expect missiles reserved for tanks and anything else too tough for 25mm.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by hypeboyz »

CapnDarwin wrote: Sat Dec 27, 2025 10:55 pm Starting with the first in the timeline of the "war", you may want to use the filters, start with Easy and drop off the Large scenarios as well, play A Time to Dance, and the other Easy level scenarios to get used to the game, then go back for more challenging scenarios. It is listed as a Veteran scenario based on the challenge it presents.
I think what we are confused is "Is it easy for nato or russians". :lol:
Scenarios like the first dance and a time to dance look more like "play as russian" for single player to me. Would it be a better idea to state them in the scenario information?
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Re: The First Dance

Post by cbelva »

Since I designed this scenario, I thought I should wade in with some comments. I would have earlier, but I have been out of the net for a few weeks.

First, This scenario was originally designed in the early days of development for Tactical Transport as a test scenario. At that time, there was no Battle Plan missions for Tactical Transport. That didn't come later in development. It was designed to be played from the Soviet side. I felt the scenario would provide a good a good introduction to TT for players. There was work done to make NATO side playable once we had TT Battle Plans missions. However, this was never going to be an easy scenario from NATO's side. As pointed out earlier, the ACR is a recon force and not a heavy line force. They are not built to dislodge infantry. In addition, they are ambushed enroute to their battle positions at the Fulda River crossing. I had a notice in the scenario description alerting players to the difficulty of playing from the NATO side and recommending that they play from the Soviet Side. However, that warning got removed before release. It will be added back in a future update. I understand the frustration players have had with this scenario playing as NATO. To win a marginal victory would be an outstanding result.

Second, As stated by Capn D, the AI in FPC does not cheat. It uses and is restricted by the same rules as the human player. In fact, I have found that the AI is at a disadvantage to the human player. I do try and compensate for that disadvantage in the Battle Plans I create. However, it is not a cheat. They are designed to keep the player honest and not take advantage of the AI.

Third, I am going to be revisiting this scenario to see if there are some things we can do to tighten the play for NATO and give them a little help. Any suggestions are appreciated.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by blackcloud6 »

I played this one last week as the Soviets vs. the AI and found it challenging. I played it on Custom setting with all Grognard settings except for automatic resupply I had on. I think you did a good job on this scenario.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Bemused »

I think the scenario is fine Cbelva and I like a challenge. In general, I think the difficulty level of every scenario should make it clear which side is favoured (when it is easy or veteran). In the several times I tried it as NATO, my issue was with the ineffectiveness of NATO troops to do any damage to the Sovs, even when the latter were not in favourable terrain, esepcially the wekness of the Bradleys. I'll come back to it when the changes have been made and give it another go.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Bemused »

Decided I would give this a go again with the recently released Beta patch.

On a positive note, the Bradleys are now actually firing their Chain guns more as can be seen here:

https://imgur.com/a/K4wC3su

Not a lot mind, but an improvement. Although you can't see it in this picture, there are enemy infantry units in the two hexes NE of 5/A/1-11A. I watched this unit carefully and he got 1 hit with the 8 rounds fired of the Chain gun. Doesn't seem great to me, given that there is an infantry unit adjacent to him in open ground and another in a hex with one or two trees two hexes away. Neither are visible in the game, but in real life I find it hard to believe that the US unit would not be firing on those hexes, given that they know there are enemies there.

This got me thinking about the firing behaviour of units in general. In this play through I have noticed that the units firing are predominantly those moving and those firing "defensively". For example, unit A moves and takes fire from unit B; unit A fires back at B. Friendly (to A) unit C might be sitting right beside enemy B but will tend not to fire at them. I'm not saying never, but it is rare. Take this case:

https://imgur.com/a/AqLeE5a

The highlighted unit sat there for turns, adjacent not only to the visible Sov unit, but also to another one adjacent and to the north (also adjacent to 3/C/1-11 A). Over the course of I think about 4 or 5 turns, they didn't fire a shot at the infantry sitting in the open. This brings me to another issue with the combat in the game. Units positioned in Overwatch are much less likely to fire than those moving (on the same side). This makes zero sense to me. Developers may argue that this is down to range and scale - perhaps infantry can only fire at 0 hex range (not what I am observing) but I have seen this with the Bradley's cannon. The unit (Bradleys) in the first picture was also sitting there for turns with plenty of infantry nearby who would "appear", exchange shots with moving enemies and disappear, all the while with the overwatching unit mostly uninterested.
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Re: The First Dance

Post by SgtZdog »

Bemused wrote: Mon Jan 19, 2026 7:47 pm Not a lot mind, but an improvement. Although you can't see it in this picture, there are enemy infantry units in the two hexes NE of 5/A/1-11A. I watched this unit carefully and he got 1 hit with the 8 rounds fired of the Chain gun. Doesn't seem great to me, given that there is an infantry unit adjacent to him in open ground and another in a hex with one or two trees two hexes away. Neither are visible in the game, but in real life I find it hard to believe that the US unit would not be firing on those hexes, given that they know there are enemies there.
Every time a unit gets a chance to fire, the AI for a unit does an assessment of what potential target is the highest threat to it that it can meaningfully engage. So in this case it's going to be a lot of it may not see the adjacent small unit, or if it can, that adjacent small unit is a much smaller threat (that it maybe doesn't have good odds of hitting).
Bemused wrote: Mon Jan 19, 2026 7:47 pm This got me thinking about the firing behaviour of units in general. In this play through I have noticed that the units firing are predominantly those moving and those firing "defensively". For example, unit A moves and takes fire from unit B; unit A fires back at B. Friendly (to A) unit C might be sitting right beside enemy B but will tend not to fire at them. I'm not saying never, but it is rare. Take this case:
https://imgur.com/a/AqLeE5a
The highlighted unit sat there for turns, adjacent not only to the visible Sov unit, but also to another one adjacent and to the north (also adjacent to 3/C/1-11 A). Over the course of I think about 4 or 5 turns, they didn't fire a shot at the infantry sitting in the open. This brings me to another issue with the combat in the game. Units positioned in Overwatch are much less likely to fire than those moving (on the same side). This makes zero sense to me. Developers may argue that this is down to range and scale - perhaps infantry can only fire at 0 hex range (not what I am observing) but I have seen this with the Bradley's cannon. The unit (Bradleys) in the first picture was also sitting there for turns with plenty of infantry nearby who would "appear", exchange shots with moving enemies and disappear, all the while with the overwatching unit mostly uninterested.
In this case, your highlighted unit is just 4 dismounted soldiers (2 sections of 2 guys each) that lack any weapons with long enough range to reach into an adjacent hex. These cav scouts are mostly there for the Bradleys with the dismounts just there to pull security. Infantry firing into hexes further away than their own are usually doing so with a machine gun, larger ATGM system, or automatic grenade launcher. Moving units tend to be more likely to shoot since they are both more likely to have targets and are already exposed and subject to return fire that is highly threatening. That is, your lone squad/SPAT subunit might choose not to shoot if it is unlikely to score a kill and is likely to get killed in return. By contrast, if that same lone subunit is moving already, it's probably going to be killed even if it doesn't shoot, so if it has a target it is more likely to shoot. WRT your first image, and Bradleys not shooting, we would need to see the save to give a more thorough answer.

(note, when I say more likely I do not mean in the sense of an RNG roll, though there is some of that, I mean in the sense of how likely the circumstances are to be descriptive of one situation vs another. Some situations are far more likely than others.)

This is not to say you are not witnessing a bug, just that it is difficult to pin down definitely that it is a bug because there are legitimate calculations that can yield this result. If you ever suspect a bug, making sure you hold onto the autosave is always a good idea, it is often one of the greatest tools for us in fixing the problem.
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Bemused
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Re: The First Dance

Post by Bemused »

Thanks Kevin, that's an informative response. I suspected that was the case with the dismounted infantry, although I would have expected at least one shot given the amount of time they were sitting there!

My Bradleys not firing though is another thing...shouldn't be too hard to test this yourselves. I think this scenario is a good testbed as there is nothing for the Bradleys to shoot TOWs at. I initally tried keeping them about three hexes away in IFV attack and with hold orders as others moved up to trigger fire from the defenders. The triggering fire worked but overwatch was rare and not terribly effective. As for threat recognition, the Sovs in this have a wealth of AT assets and, given the Bradleys burning around them I would expect them to recognise the infantry as serious threats!
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