Altitude and Air-to-Air

[Wiedrock]

Note: I call the 12 or 10 or 2 (et cetera) groups of planes which are separately listed a "flight".

So.

I am not all that knowledgable when it comes to air war - especially Air-to-Air, so correct me if I am encountering the usual newbee issues which I likely will do with some easy way calculations I make. It is not supposed to be on point but to highlight an issue I have encountered and I'd like to have figured out.

This is about GS ADs for both sides.
I was thinking about ways on how to overcome enemy Fighter cover when one can not contest in quality or quantity.
In this I assume that I know the enemy's altitude for GS ADs (you can see this in the combat reports - it's set in the doctrines). Let's say it is set to the usual 9000ft.
If I now want to use my LBs in defensive GS with barely any/no fighters I can affort, my idea is to fly as high as I can to avoid -at least- the enemy GS Escorts. I expect to get some patrols/auto-intercepts contesting my planes but that's alright, also sometimes getting escorts to intercept would be totally fine.

But.

The issue is that the enemy escort planes are regularly (like 99%) intercepting the LBs!

Altitude_LBvsFtr.jpg (179.67 KiB) Viewed 674 times

time and place: I know the GS result is supposed to be an average of many engagements over a longer period of the day(s), but if pretty much every "flight" of 12 planes gets intercepted by pretty much always enemy ESCORTs then this is a very unusual conincidence to me newbee. Since the escorts are flying (supposed to fly) with the enemy bombers - so they are not there at all times. The chance of both (or all the smaller ones) groups running into one another again and again and again is relatively small (isn't it?).

Speeds, Climb and times (newbee math):
The Hex is a 10mile Hex. So with a speed of 230mph you'd pass it in 10/(230/60)=2.61minutes.
If we triple this for here-there-paths and add some time to turn, let's say it is 8minutes over the Hex/target area.
If I now fly the LBs at ~28,000ft altitude and the enemy planes (ESCORTS) are at 9,000ft (the number we know from observing enemy GS) the fighters would need to climb 19,000ft to intercept my LBs.
With an climb rate of 2345 (MiG-3) we would expect it to take 19000/2345=8.1minutes.
If we would just use a random (tell me what else to use) 200mph horizontal speed during climb this would mean the planes cover a distance of about 8x(200/60)=26.67miles (whatever number used it is way more than 10miles).
Similarly, when the bomber would be ahead a random 2miles (but you would know where it is, and would already be on altitude) then, when using the cruise speeds and their difference of 263-230=33mph, we would need 2/33*60=3.64min to catch up (note that the bomber would pass a distance of 230/60*3.64=13.95miles during that time).

Now I could certainly think of issues, like using the cruise speeds and not the "speeds at altitude" in the math, but in any case the circumstance of pretty much 100% intercepts with ESCORTS at -19k altitude stands either way.

Altitude_planes.jpg (199.8 KiB) Viewed 674 times

So.
With this much of an hight advantage/difference.
And this math I made (may not be correct).
And with this many smaller missions/flights.

How can the escorts reach almost a 100% intercept rate?

Now, obviously without own fighters the escorts could fly freely - but they never know if there are enemy fighters inbound - and if they would, they would still need to know/find/climb/catch up to the LBs at the correct time of the day - every "flight"/time.

A further odditie:
The ESCORTS are regularly outperforming the PATROLS (which are already flying at the correct altitude), this also seems a bit weird to me. It may be related to how the test is set up (other Air Army, Airport situations, distance), so this is just a side note.


Note: I have tested editing planes (both, making the MiGs slower and the LBs faster), if one inputs extreme numbers things at some point switch but before that nothing seems to rly matter (at least not directly observable). So generally it seems to work but the altitude and the setup of AD altitudes seems to not matter at all when it comes to avoiding enemy fighters (unless one can fly above the fighter's max altitude).

[Wiedrock]

A further odditie:
The ESCORTS are regularly outperforming the PATROLS (which are already flying at the correct altitude), this also seems a bit weird to me. It may be related to how the test is set up (other Air Army, Airport situations, distance), so this is just a side note.

Now same Air Army, the result is the same, PATROL performs worse than ESCORT in shooting down enemy LBs despite having another objective and flying at higher altitudes to begin with. Even with better SKILL the patrols are worse.

Altitude_ESCvsPAT.jpg (369.38 KiB) Viewed 656 times

Furthermore, in case there's still hope that the Air leader rating has a roll to play. (Doubt.)

Altitude_LeaderSOV.jpg (113.98 KiB) Viewed 656 times

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Putting the game mechanics aside and thinking in 'real world' terms. If you aren't flying your own fighters then there is nothing keeping the enemy escorts from leaving their bombers and going after yours. So essentially their mission can change from escort (which is unnecessary) to CAP - which they'll be flying at the altitude where your bombers are being observed. So rather than it being a situation where the escort fighters are zooming up from their own bomber altitude to yours it's more one where the initial escort flights are coming back reporting no enemy fighter activity, the patrol flights are reporting unescorted bombers flying at 28k and then the subsequent escort flights are flying straight up to that altitude to wait for your subsequent bombing raids rather than escorting their own bombers.

In a game operating at this scale geographically and time wise then a side that has the advantage both in numbers and in quality is going to have air superiority whatever the other side does. Your only hope as the Soviet player in the early game and the Axis player in the later game is to concentrate your numbers/quality in one place and force the opponent to either match your concentration (thus easing the pressure from the air elsewhere) or allow you to contest the air in the selected area on more even terms. Even then from an Axis perspective it is a losing proposition long term - it's just trying to find the slowest way to lose.

[56ajax]

From memory a Leaders Air Rating does not impact on combat. A high Air rating ensure aircraft are not held in Reserve

[Wiedrock]

Putting the game mechanics aside and thinking in 'real world' terms. If you aren't flying your own fighters then there is nothing keeping the enemy escorts from leaving their bombers and going after yours. So essentially their mission can change from escort (which is unnecessary) to CAP - which they'll be flying at the altitude where your bombers are being observed. So rather than it being a situation where the escort fighters are zooming up from their own bomber altitude to yours it's more one where the initial escort flights are coming back reporting no enemy fighter activity, the patrol flights are reporting unescorted bombers flying at 28k and then the subsequent escort flights are flying straight up to that altitude to wait for your subsequent bombing raids rather than escorting their own bombers.

The thing is that it is ALL and every flight being intercepted and intercept.
Besides this I doubt 100% of Soviet fighters could simply break formation to hunt elsewhere while on escort mission (found an US report where they speak about something like special/separate hunting squads). There is a fortmation you need to keep and if you leave it your bombers are cooked, at worst without achieving their missions.
And how would you know there were no enemy fighters anywhere with certainty is another question. Radars didn't exist, radios were limited and/or only receivers. Spotting/finding enemy formations is another feat to begin with, both in timing and actually spotting them.
The thing is the 100%. Nothing is. Likely nothing in this game is. Except seemingly this (in this setup).

In a game operating at this scale geographically and time wise then a side that has the advantage both in numbers and in quality is going to have air superiority whatever the other side does. Your only hope as the Soviet player in the early game and the Axis player in the later game is to concentrate your numbers/quality in one place and force the opponent to either match your concentration (thus easing the pressure from the air elsewhere) or allow you to contest the air in the selected area on more even terms. Even then from an Axis perspective it is a losing proposition long term - it's just trying to find the slowest way to lose.

That's alright for the big picture, but imo there should be at least a bit of benefit on small scales from activating your brain other than amassing stuff and choosing a arbitrary altitude (ignoring Flak here).

From memory a Leaders Air Rating does not impact on combat. A high Air rating ensure aircraft are not held in Reserve

What Reserve you mean? The 3rd "status" besides Ready and Damaged planes?

[56ajax]

Putting the game mechanics aside and thinking in 'real world' terms. If you aren't flying your own fighters then there is nothing keeping the enemy escorts from leaving their bombers and going after yours. So essentially their mission can change from escort (which is unnecessary) to CAP - which they'll be flying at the altitude where your bombers are being observed. So rather than it being a situation where the escort fighters are zooming up from their own bomber altitude to yours it's more one where the initial escort flights are coming back reporting no enemy fighter activity, the patrol flights are reporting unescorted bombers flying at 28k and then the subsequent escort flights are flying straight up to that altitude to wait for your subsequent bombing raids rather than escorting their own bombers.

The thing is that it is ALL and every flight being intercepted and intercept.
Besides this I doubt 100% of Soviet fighters could simply break formation to hunt elsewhere while on escort mission (found an US report where they speak about something like special/separate hunting squads). There is a fortmation you need to keep and if you leave it your bombers are cooked, at worst without achieving their missions.
And how would you know there were no enemy fighters anywhere with certainty is another question. Radars didn't exist, radios were limited and/or only receivers. Spotting/finding enemy formations is another feat to begin with, both in timing and actually spotting them.
The thing is the 100%. Nothing is. Likely nothing in this game is. Except seemingly this (in this setup).

In a game operating at this scale geographically and time wise then a side that has the advantage both in numbers and in quality is going to have air superiority whatever the other side does. Your only hope as the Soviet player in the early game and the Axis player in the later game is to concentrate your numbers/quality in one place and force the opponent to either match your concentration (thus easing the pressure from the air elsewhere) or allow you to contest the air in the selected area on more even terms. Even then from an Axis perspective it is a losing proposition long term - it's just trying to find the slowest way to lose.

That's alright for the big picture, but imo there should be at least a bit of benefit on small scales from activating your brain other than amassing stuff and choosing a arbitrary altitude (ignoring Flak here).

From memory a Leaders Air Rating does not impact on combat. A high Air rating ensure aircraft are not held in Reserve

What Reserve you mean? The 3rd "status" besides Ready and Damaged planes?

Yes and TBH this is a WiTE1 memory

[trooperrob]

I thought reserve in WITE2 was purely on supplies in a base.
Shift aircraft to a base with insufficient supply and many will be in reserve.

The fact the op is claiming that escort fighters have a better combat record is alarming.
Are the escort fighters using all their fuel?
Are all the base fighters fully committed.
Could they be alerting other fighters from the base.
AFAIK - escort fighters were there to escort, and shouldn't divert to engage anything not threatening their bombers directly.
Must admit playing russia I never have much confidence in my air.

[Wiedrock]

Are the escort fighters using all their fuel?

From what I have tested, every plane (I'd guess on every mission - not tested all) that starts for a mission is fully loading up on 100% fuel and 100% ammo (which varies by Loadouts). And from what I could observe it all was used (nothing ever came back into the Airfield).

The fact the op is claiming that escort fighters have a better combat record is alarming.

In the setup I tested.
See the attached, where I reversed the altitude (so German Bombers fly low at 4k and Soviet GS flies at 21k). This version suddenly the Patrol performs better on average, so it likely isn't an Escort vs Patrol performance difference but a "how high is your own mission altitude" reason (I guess). Planes have a speed/altitude graph (shown in my first post) maybe this is causing it to some degree.
I am still not sure what speed planes use when they engage one another at altitude X. Since the difference in speeds of planes can vary massively. Like, if we have one plane flying an AD on 20k where its maxspeed of 300mph is and another flying a mission on 10k where its maxspeed 300mph is, then...

1. ...at which altitude do they meet/engage?
2. ...what speed of the graph is being used?

Must admit playing russia I never have much confidence in my air.

Soviets never rly got their shit together in the air....maybe 1945 (but never rly).

[trooperrob]

The manual (maybe living one? or just a post on here) said iirc that altitude was key, so I did wonder at whether setting the patrol altitude to max altitude (for that plane group) would help. Could you set it higher?
I don't know if flying at max altitude would have any disadvantages, raise fatigue, (cold and on oxygen - esp in soviet fighters might be tiring and dangerous).
The German pilots didn't get relieved, and many were very experienced, and for a lot of the war their tactics and equipment were better...

I have much of the set of black cross red star (v comprehensive - but I need to read them through).
I know soviet ground attack got much better - esp cluster bombs on IL-2 later, but not sure of the extent of improvement of fighters.
The planes got better in fits and starts, and russia had some very good pilots, and eventually numbers must have helped them stay alive long enough to learn.
wiki says 5 million PTAB dropped in 1944.

[Wiedrock]

The manual (maybe living one? or just a post on here) said iirc that altitude was key, so I did wonder at whether setting the patrol altitude to max altitude (for that plane group) would help. Could you set it higher?

PATROLis automatic, don't think we can change it. I always get the 15k ones and the ones on the enemy mission altitudes.
Supposedly, there is an hight advantage in (at least) dogfights where the higher one has a bonus (higher dive speed/more maneuverability and so on). But never seen anyone making a comprehensive test on this being the case, so not sure what its impact would be in parallel to dozents other modifiers to look at.

I don't know if flying at max altitude would have any disadvantages, raise fatigue, (cold and on oxygen - esp in soviet fighters might be tiring and dangerous).

Above 25k there is some added Fatigue which lowers "SKILL" of Flights.

I have much of the set of black cross red star (v comprehensive - but I need to read them through).
I know soviet ground attack got much better - esp cluster bombs on IL-2 later, but not sure of the extent of improvement of fighters.
The planes got better in fits and starts, and russia had some very good pilots, and eventually numbers must have helped them stay alive long enough to learn.
wiki says 5 million PTAB dropped in 1944.

The game does nto have PTABs, their individual explosiveness may be too small for the combat engine to handle, but the IL-2's performance is good as is imo so this isn't a issue.