Amazing (very slightly off topic)

[Barbarossa]

There was a programme on the TV on Sunday night hosted by a British car journalist about recent winners of the Victoria Cross. Apparently six were awarded for the Arnhem Campaign.

One of them went to a major who single handedly disabled three Tiger tanks in the village of Oosterbeck with a PIAT gun.

Three of them! Single handedly!


Patrick

[Tomus]

That guy was Jeremy Clarkson's Father in law. Apparently he also charged the Germans holding a mortar from the hip and firing it!

Did you see the bit when he described other actions that didn't warrant a VC[X(]

[Barbarossa]

Yup, they beggar belief....... I'm annoyed in that I didn't know the programme was on and missed the first half.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Barbarossa

Yup, they beggar belief....... I'm annoyed in that I didn't know the programme was on and missed the first half.

I missed that one altogether! [:(][:(][:(]

[The_MadMan]

ORIGINAL: Barbarossa

There was a programme on the TV on Sunday night hosted by a British car journalist about recent winners of the Victoria Cross. Apparently six were awarded for the Arnhem Campaign.

One of them went to a major who single handedly disabled three Tiger tanks in the village of Oosterbeck with a PIAT gun.

Three of them! Single handedly!


Patrick

I saw that show in the Airborne museum in Oosterbeek a few weeks ago. Truely amazing what he (and others) did....

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Apparently he also charged the Germans holding a mortar from the hip and firing it!

How does on fire a mortar from the hip? We´re talking about a standard mortar here right?

[Barbarossa]

Probably the same way you survive taking three Tigers out with a PIAT gun and live to tell the tale (or not as the case may be, he never bothered to tell his daughter that he'd been awarded the VC!?!?!?). If I remember the programme rightly he died of cancer in 1974.

[bigbabyhead]

I didn't see the show, but reading this page about the man was amazing:

http://www.arnhemarchive.org/robert_cain.htm

"Cain appeared to have developed an intense loathing of tanks after the bitter experiences of his Battalion on Tuesday 19th, and he personally saw to it that as many were destroyed as possible. If ever armour approached then he would grab the nearest PIAT and set out to deal with it himself."

[Tzar007]

ORIGINAL: Tomus

Apparently he also charged the Germans holding a mortar from the hip and firing it!

I know understand where Stallone got his inspiration for Rambo...[:)]

You have to be one crazy guy to charge the enemy with a mortar at the hip [&o]

[Mr. Personality]

I didn't see the show myself, but it was interesting reading about the man and some of his fellow soliders at the web site provided by bigbabyhead. Thanks for the link! [:)]

[The Hapless General]

Actually, IIRC, the PIAT (which is essentialy an AP mortar) could be fired from the hip, and was known as the knee-breaker for that.

Cheers

[Barbarossa]

The thing I've always found oddest about the PIAT is the fact that the warhead is propelled by a spring. It just seems so anachronistic...... Basically a crossbow with a AP(ish) warhead instead of a quarrel.

It's so daft only the British could have invented it .


Patrick

[Arjuna]

Yeh, but it had no BBDA ( that's Back Blast Danger Area ) to give away its position. [;)]

[Barbarossa]

First (relevent) result on a Google search revealed the following comment:-


"It's just a large Pogo stick really......".

[Golf33]

Depending on where you look, some folks say the PIAT spring didn't actually throw the bomb:

Panzerfaust: Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons of WWII

The weapon fired a fin-stabilized shaped-charge projectile with a length of 38cm, a caliber of 8.9cm and weight of 1.13kg. HE-Shrapnel and smoke warheads were also available. The projectile can not be inserted into the forward part of the weapon before the spring has been loaded. The latter is a very tedious process: not only does the very strong spring need a loading force of 90kg, but also has to be loaded with a certain techinque. Therefore, the weapon can only be loaded by very strong and trained personnel. Loading in a prone position is out of question: With the tube between the legs and standing on the T-piece with the feet, the gunner grabs the tube at the trigger pistol grip and turns it counterclockwise while while at the same time pulling it up until he hears the cocked spring lock with a loud click.
Firing the weapon is no less of a problem: the trigger can only be pulled using all four fingers. Then the firing pin hits the procectile in its rear, where a small charge of propellant is detonated. The latter makes for a recoil that will cock the spring automatically for the next shot - if the gunner can't take that recoil - which was reportedly not too seldom - he will have to load the weapon again in the way described above. The projectile leaves the weapon at a Vo of 135m/s but accelerates in flight. Tanks could be attacked at ranges up to 100yd., larger targets like houses at larger distances of 300m and more.
Another major problem was the ammunition itself. The fuse of the warheads had a bad habit of prematurely detonating. In fact, the handling of the ammunition was considered so dangerous that immediately after the war any and all practice firing of the weapon was strictly prohibited, although the weapons themselves officially remained in service until 1951.

Or:

wwiitech.net

The mechanism of the PIAT was mind numbingly simple. The Spigot was propelled forward by a huge spring. This spring was compressed by unlatching the shoulder pad, standing on it and lifting the body until the spring and the spigot were almost completely withdrawn and then returning the body to the shoulder pad and the weapon was ready to fire. A bomb was placed in the tray at the front so that when the trigger was pulled the spigot was released entering the tail unit of the bomb thus detonating the charge. This explosion blew the bomb off the spigot and forced the spigot back into the body thus re-cocking the weapon ready to be re-loaded. The maximum effective range was quotes as 100 yards though the bomb could reach 750 yards. The anti-personnel and signal bombs were never used.

And the last one:

inert-ord.net

Operation
The weapon was first cocked by means of the butt plate at the base. The gunner stood on the plate and pulled the tube up. This retracted the spigot rod while also compressing a massive internal spring. This was a difficult and strenuous thing to do, but only had to be done once. A large cork was inserted in the hole that the spigot retracted into.
When ready to fire, the cork was pulled from the spigot hole, the bomb was fuzed and then placed in the "muzzle" tray.
Pulling the trigger released the rod which slammed into the tail boom, detonating the propelling charge as well as providing an additional kick assist.
Upon firing, the spigot was blown back and automatically re-cocked. This also helped absorb some of ferocious recoil.
It was absolutely violent to shoot, heavy, bulky, and hard to operate but was an effective tank killer.

The propelling charge was instantaneous and blew the bomb off the spigot sending the round on an arcing trajectory. It was not a rocket assisted flight as sometimes described.
As disconcerting as it was to see this bomb fly through the air in a characteristic slow and "wobbly" manner, the hollow charge was capable of piercing four inches of armor, enough to deal with most tanks.
While the maximum range was much greater, accuracy limited to it to an effective distance of about 100 yards. This was its major drawback.

All-in-all a rather fascinating weapon.

Regards
33

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: The Hapless General
Actually, IIRC, the PIAT (which is essentialy an AP mortar) could be fired from the hip, and was known as the knee-breaker for that.

In fact the PIAT could be used as a mortar. So I believe he was not firing a normal mortar from his hip, which is pretty mich impossible [;)]



Something interesting with regards to our VC heros [;)]. In this account it´s sombody else , killing "only" two "Tigers" (we all know that every german tank is a Tiger) and he did fire the PIAT from the hip. I wonder if these stories are the "same"
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/britain/weapons/piat/

The PIAT achieved the aims behind its design. It provided a reasonably lightweight, man portable anti-tank weapon. It was actually startlingly effective within it’s limitations but it was by no means popular. It was heavy, cumbersome and strenuous to cock. It was also renowned for being violent to fire. In spite of this it earned grudging respect for the amount of damage a determined man and his PIAT could do. The most famous action involving a PIAT must be the case of fusilier Jefferson in Italy. Jefferson dashed into the open and stopped two tigers with his PIAT firing from the hip. He was awarded the Victoria Cross, Britain’s highest honour, for this act though the general consensus was that he deserved a VC for firing the PIAT from the hip, let alone destroying two heavy tanks!

Some more things on the PIAT:

http://www.arnhemarchive.org/equip_piat.htm

http://www.geocities.com/nasenoviny/PIATen.html

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Something interesting with regards to our VC heros [;)]. In this account it´s sombody else , killing "only" two "Tigers" (we all know that every german tank is a Tiger) and he did fire the PIAT from the hip. I wonder if these stories are the "same"
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/britain/weapons/piat/

No the events are not the same (look up the 2 winners at http://www.victoriacross.net/name.asp )

Major Cain's VC isn't really detailed, but the TV programme does confirm his tank killing. I can't confirm they were really Tigers, but both men certainly killed tanks, and the events are not connected. Anyone got access to Cain's citation?

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: Barbarossa

The thing I've always found oddest about the PIAT is the fact that the warhead is propelled by a spring. It just seems so anachronistic...... Basically a crossbow with a AP(ish) warhead instead of a quarrel.

It's so daft only the British could have invented it .


Patrick

Not propelled by the spring, the propellant is initiated by it. The launcher might have been a pig, but the bomb was a very capable infantry anti-tank device (with a secondary anti-infantry role).