Rule clarification - TF's returning home

[Adam Parker]

Need help with Rule 6.1.14 "TF Returning to Home" page 91-92, which to me, seems an integral rule and the last para of the section agrees! Point 3 states that a TF will return home:

"If the TF is at its DH and none of the following conditions are true:" It then follows with 5 negative statements:

1. "If the DH is not its home base" - Does this mean if this is not true, it will return home? If so isn't it home already?

2. "It is not following another TF" - Does this mean if it is following one, it will return home? If it's at it's DH hasn't it stopped following the TF it was doing so to start with?

3. "It is not currently loading or unloading" - Does this mean if it is loading etc., it will return home? This is wrong. Only if it has stopped loading etc., will it return home (see 6.1.7.1 page 78).

4. "It is not a sub patrol mission" - Does this mean that if it is a sub patrol mission it will return home - doesn't make sense?

5. "Its patrol/retreat status is not Patrol/Do Not Retire" - So if it is set to "do not retire" it will retire back to home base?

I think people can see the problem here. The subsection is worded as a double negative and I think the intent has unintentionally become back to front. Also are these 5 checks meant to be cumulative?

So:

1. Could this rule please be clarified?

2. Also note that the last para ends with an incomplete sentence simply being: "TF's". Is there a sentence missing or is this just a typo?

3. Also note that the illustration used in Section 6.1.13 "Transferring Ships Between Task Forces" is wrong.

I hate to make errors myself and we are human but I'm really losing faith in this rule book guys!

Adam.

[Mr.Frag]

These are all condition tests that are applied to see if a TF *will* return to it's home base. Should any of these conditions be true, it will *NOT* return home like normal.

1. Already at Home Base (nowhere to return to)
2. Ordered to follow another TF (busy doing something else)
3. Actively loading or unloading (it will not move until completed)
4. Sub Patrol missions do not have a Retire Option (it never retires)
5. It is not a Sub Patrol and has been ordered to "Do Not Retire" (it never retires)

[Adam Parker]

Thanks Frag, in the rules re-write maybe the team can leave point 1 out as it's totally unnecessary.

Point 2 needs to be worded differently for once a following TF reaches the followee's DH it then stops "following". The section concerns what a TF does once it reaches its DH.

Point 3 and 4 are as I thought.

Point 5 as you've summarized is VERY important.

There's also a messy paragraph concerning TF's with elements broken off due to damage/low speed "being attacked". What it should really read is "damaged as a result of an attack" as the damaged element once broken off, doesn't need to be attacked *again* in order for its parent TF to decide whether to abort. This is the way it currently reads though.

Any insight you can obtain for me on that hanging last sentence? Typo or is something missing?

[Mr.Frag]

A TF can choose to toggle the "Do Not Retire" for a couple of reasons ... lack of ammo, damage, fuel shortage, etc.

If the damage is really bad, and the ship(s) can't make acceptable speed, they are split off into another separate TF with a return to home base set. This is separate from the above statement. Using the *ESCORT* type mission bypasses this split.

As far as your point about DH with follow, there is no DH for a follow order. The DH is the TF being followed so really using "Retirement Allowed" with "Follow TF" is pretty much pointless.

Just to be clear on the first point, *any* TF that considers itself short of ammo *will* run home no matter what you do. This is what can cause a mission that is under heavy air attack to abort. It decides that while it has not been damaged, it does not have the ammo to safely continue.

One last twist. Bombardment TF's convert to Surface TF's after burning up the ammo and want to run home too.

Here is probably the *MOST* confusing single thing I am going to say now:

There is nothing you can set to force ships to not retire. The "Do not Retire" simply means press forward harder. It is *never* 100% certain that this will not be reset to "Retirement Allowed".

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As far as your point about DH with follow, there is no DH for a follow order. The DH is the TF being followed so really using "Retirement Allowed" with "Follow TF" is pretty much pointless.

The purpose of Rule 6.1.14 is to talk about what TF's do once they *reach* their DH.

The previous rules concerning the various TF orders state, that a TF set to follow, assumes the followee's DH though this is not listed on its TF screen.

Therefore I assume that a following TF will head for and enter the followee's DH. I also assume that once in this hex, it's follow orders end. Hence point 2 of this rule - "It is not following another TF" - doesn't make sense. Once in its DH, it is no longer following anything.

Rule 6.1.14 is simply too important for any mis-interpretaton. Players need to know with absolute certainty when a TF will decide to return home *once it reaches its DH*, so that remedial action may be taken or contingency plans made. As I've said, even the rule itself, considers it paramount that players comprehend this behavior with confidence.

Can we please simply clarify this sole rule for now and leave other retirement situations for another discussion? From your first post, point 1 should be omitted as irrelevant, point 2 doesn't make sense and point 5 needs to be absolutely certain.

Thanks guys,
Adam.

(edit typo[:D])

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As far as your point about DH with follow, there is no DH for a follow order. The DH is the TF being followed so really using "Retirement Allowed" with "Follow TF" is pretty much pointless.

The purpose of Rule 6.1.14 is to talk about what TF's do once they *reach* their DH.

The previous rules concerning the various TF orders state, that a TF set to follow, assumes the followee's DH though this is not listed on its TF screen.

Therefore I assume that a following TF will head for and enter the followee's DH. I also assume that once in this hex, it's follow orders end. Hence point 2 of this rule - "It is not following another TF" - doesn't make sense. Once in its DH, it is no longer following anything.

No, it will attempt to stay in the same hex as the followed group then break off once at the followed groups DH. It will not get to the followed groups DH first even though it has extra speed. If it did, it would be completely useless.

Rule 6.1.14 is simply too important for any mis-interpretaton. Players need to know with absolute certainty when a TF will decide to return home *once it reaches its DH*, so that remedial action may be taken or contingency plans made. As I've said, even the rule itself, considers it paramount that players comprehend this behavior with confidence.

You can't, thats the whole point. It is a variable condition that takes multiple things into account such as the level of resistance at the DH.

Can we please simply clarify this sole rule for now and leave other retirement situations for another discussion? From your first post, point 1 should be omitted as irrelevant, point 2 doesn't make sense and point 5 needs to be absolutely certain.

No, point 1 is very relevant as ships you might expect to be at the DH don't show up throwing your entire plan out to lunch. Point 2 simply states that the Follow Order is removed if at the DH since "Retirement Allowed" is set. Left to "Do not retire", the follow command stays in force unless some other condition negates it (point 1 again) and point 5 is simply an extension to point 1's aborting due to lack of ammo, again toggling "Do not Retire" to "Retirement Allowed".

Thanks guys,
Adam.

(edit typo[:D])

[Adam Parker]

Appreciate your efforts here but the last paragraph in Rule 6.1.14 states that players must understand the 5 conditions covered to play well. Therefore these 5 conditions are definites. The rule only relates to what a TF does *once it reaches its DH*.

The rule states that a TF will return home on reaching its DH in 5 cases.

The rule states: "If the TF is at its DH and *none* of the following conditions are *true*: 1. If the DH is not its home base".

- Wrong! If this *is* true it will return home. If it was home it wouldn't need to return there! This is so obvious why make it a rule? Hence, leave it out.

The rule states: "If the TF is at its DH and *none* of the following conditions are *true*: 5. It is not following another TF".

- Wrong! Again the opposite is likely intended but if a TF has just reached it's DH by following something there, it is no longer following anything at all.

So my advice is to please re-write 6.1.14 owing to its centrality and if able, have it officially posted asap.

Could you also please check on that incomplete last sentence there too. I expect the guys are busy patching but I've posted a few times now without any clear answers on this, missing icons from the rulebook, a quick ref chart to no official joy. I'd appreciate assistance on all.

Thanks,
Adam.

[tsimmonds]

- Wrong! Again the opposite is likely intended but if a TF has just reached it's DH by following something there, it is no longer following anything at all.

A TF can either have a DH, or it can be set to follow another TF to its DH. A TF cannot have a DH and be set to follow another TF. So as long as TF 2 is set to follow TF 1, it will try to stay in the same hex as TF 1. IF TF 1 has arrived at its DH, and has "Patrol/Do not retire" set, it will stay at the DH, and so will TF 2. TF 2 will only leave when it is given a DH of its own (and is therefore no longer following TF 1), or when TF 1 leaves, and TF 2 follows TF 1 to wherever it is now heading.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

A TF can either have a DH, or it can be set to follow another TF to its DH.

No, the DH of the TF it is following becomes the pursuing TF's own DH but it is not listed as such on its TF screen - page 90 of the game manual quote: "A TF given Follow Task Force orders has the same destination as the targeted TF, although the
TF Information Screen will not list a DH it." - forget the missing word typo. So in effect it actually has its own DH.

Which has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Rule 6.1.14 talks about what happens when a TF does enter its DH. And I apologize because it is actually subpoint 2 of this rule and not subpoint 5 of this rule that refers to the act of "following" from my last post.

So once again what does the following mean?

"Rule 6.1.14 There are several events that will cause a TF to automatically return to its home base. These events are:... 3. If the TF is at its DH and none of the following conditions are true:.... 2) it is not following another TF,"

[tsimmonds]

Don't ask me to parse the rules, all I know is what I see. If one TF is following another, it will follow it, including patrolling with it in its DH if that is what it is set to do. It will do this until something else makes it stop.

[Twotribes]

I set one Carrier Task Force to go somewhere with the orders do not retire, I set the second carrier task force to follow the first, they both stay in the destination hex till I tell the first to go somewhere else.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Don't ask me to parse the rules,

You're pulling my leg right? The whole purpose of my thread is to have someone interpret the rules!

Thanks Twotribes. I'm guessing the whole 6.1.14 is a balls-up and things are like you say but I'd like a 2by3 person to please oblige with an interpetation of the 5 point section 6.1.14 for me.

Afterall - it's the 2by3 Game Manual that states "It is important to have a thorough understanding of the above conditions that will send a TF heading for home."

Uh huh.

[Twotribes]

I will check again, though, it is possible that I moved them the next turn cause of being in landbased air range. So on second thought I may be wrong.

[tsimmonds]

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Don't ask me to parse the rules,

You're pulling my leg right? The whole purpose of my thread is to have someone interpret the rules!

My mistake, I thought you wanted to know how it worked.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

My mistake, I thought you wanted to know how it worked.

That's the next step [:)] Appreciate your help guys and LOL Twotribes, if things are making sense to you without the rules, just keep going on without them man, do not open that book, it'll drain your sanity!

[Mr.Frag]

I'm still not seeing your point at all on 6.1.14 (list for point 3). They are perfectly clear. Does it help looking at it like this:

IF AT DH AND Home NOT True AND Follow NOT True AND Load NOT True AND Retire NOT True THEN Stay Put ELSE Go Home

[steveh11Matrix]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I'm still not seeing your point at all on 6.1.14 (list for point 3). They are perfectly clear. Does it help looking at it like this:

IF AT DH AND Home NOT True AND Follow NOT True AND Load NOT True AND Retire NOT True THEN Stay Put ELSE Go Home

Actual code fragment? [:'(]

Steve. (runs and ducks...)

[freeboy]

this really isn't as confused as it looks, but the manual does need to be read in the context of actually playing the game, quite a bitch in my estimation, needs several "Kid"
helpers like the new sub thread...
I could not know for sure at the beginning if what was shown was the ruting.. ie "load supply" ment it was loading or I needed to click on it... talk about a learning curve... especially since I tossed uv out in a desk purge last year...
lol
keep asking those ?'s, the members here are good at helping...
[:D]

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I'm still not seeing your point at all on 6.1.14 (list for point 3). They are perfectly clear. Does it help looking at it like this:

IF AT DH AND Home NOT True AND Follow NOT True AND Load NOT True AND Retire NOT True THEN Stay Put ELSE Go Home

No. Just read point 1 again verbatim please: ""If the TF is at its DH and none of the following conditions are true: 1. If the DH is not its home base".

This translates as: "If the DH IS its home base return home".

Actually if you could please get someone from 2by3 to read the section and answer them that would be better.

The same for all other points - they are back to front. Then address the issues you've brought up:

1. "IF AT DH AND Home NOT True... Go Home" - why tell players this?

2. IF AT DH AND Follow NOT TRUE... Go Home" - if at DH how can you still be following?

[Pimlico]

In the 2 days you've been debating this you could have tried a few turns, sent a TF to a DH that's not its homebase and then watched to see if it went home or not.

As it happens I think you're right regarding the typo, there's an extra 'not' in either the opening line or in point 1, but as this is a PC game and not a face to face board/wargame then I think that typos of this nature in the rulebook aren't really important. You don't have to debate with your opponent whether this TF moves here or there, or whether my unit of EHC can perform a flank charge on your unit of LTS after i've thrown a 4 on a day not starting with T. It's a PC game, experiment with it, observe what happens, don't get hung up on a (maybe) poorly constructed sentence in the rulebook =)