Review of HoI2 over at wargamers

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

It just is not that satisfying when you are doing a re-peat of the newbie levels with just modifiers changed against you.

Just do like I always do Pippin, start out playing on the "hardest" or next to hardest level, then the AI is fun to play against for awhile. I can't remember the last time I played a game on "easy" or "normal" settings. I already know it will be so dumbed down it will be too simple.

One of the best AI's I've played in quite awhile is the SPARTAN AI version 1.013, holy gawd almighty, it will swarm you and eliminate you in a matter of no time on its highest settings and even on "easy" people ran to the forum and whined how "hard" the easy level was. lol

I'd rather have an AI that beats me 10 to 1 vs an AI that never wins. There's no glory in beating a stupid AI. But, when the day comes the AI beats the pants off of us and they program a little humor and arrogance into it like it will say "Ha hah hah beat you again you silly human" or "they should enhance your programming human" that is the day I will enjoy computer AI's the most.

I agree - give me a tough AI any day.

What can help immensely in aiding the AI is for companies to make their wargames highly moddable. Dedicated gamers can do a lot to making a good game a very tough game.

I would point out SC2 as an example of a game developer purposely adding in editors and an event system to allow gamers to tweak the system to provide for the best game possible.

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Looks like we'll have to wait longer for those player reviews. The idiots at EBGames still don't have it on the shelf even though their website said it would ship on the 4th.

At this stage of the game we will now have to wait to see what the players themelves think of HoI2.

[CatLord]

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

CatLord:

I note that you are a moderator on the Paradox forums. So I can understand your defence of their games.

And yes, I own and play EU2 (which I think is Paradox's best game).

Were you also a HoI2 beta tester?

The fact that you defend HoI2 as well as NOT care about the AI in the game, does raise red flags for me...

I was only very lightly involved in the HoI2 betatest, unfortunately for me (I was stuck with a lot of RL stuffs [:(]).

I didn't imply the AI was bad by any mean. Just that for what I played (longest being up to 1941 with France starting in 36 IIRC), the AI seems decent to me. And I don't expect much more from any game AI, to be honest. I have enough experience in wargaming to know that the only real challenge is to play another human, although, like most of the other players around, I do not always have the time for that, and more often than not play on my own. In this case, I expect the AI to not do gross mistakes, and be a good sparing partner. But apart if I really choose a very unbalance situation, I know that if I lose, it's because I didn't understand something in the game mechanisms, not because the AI was clever than me. The only game an AI will trash me time and again, are probably classic games with simple rules, like Chess or Go, which are a league of their own (and have decades of AI research behind them).

To be more specific about my gaming experience, in my longest game, I decided to play an agressive France:

First, I take part in the Civil War of Spain, aside the Republicans, and ensure the Nationalists didn't win this war.

Second, when the real war broke out, I decided to cross the Rhine in force while the German AI was busy in Poland. I managed to cut through South of Germany up to Yugoslavia, drive South to link with the Yougoslavian Forces and annihilate a couple of German divisions which were surrounded there, and try to establish a line of defense between Alsace and Czekoslovakia, to launch an offensive North from there.

During this time, the Allies (that is, as we were early in the war, Republican Spain, UK and its dominion but not the US) tried a modest D-Day in Northern Germany but were driven back with heavy losses to the sea.

Then, taking advantage of their superior Industry, especially helped by the ones capture in the East, the Germans gear up in power, and my offensive from the South comes to an halt, and then becomes to be a defeat and a retreat back behind the Maginot line...

That's when I stopped, muttering than next time, I will orient my research differently (My armies took heavy loss from the air, as the Germans definitely kept an advantage there with their numerous and deadly planes, and pounce me badly).

The only "mistake" the AI may have done would have been in the first part of the game when it didn't try better to save its divisions in Yugoslavia. Other than that it seems to me to try to be on the defensive on one front and stay on the offensive on the other, to concentrate its force localy and trash its opponent one after another instead of taking all of them at the same time. I call that a decent AI.

Does an AI stand a chance in front of an experienced Human Player in the long run ? Probably never. Is it good enough so that if you do not plan very well your offensives, production and research in your very first games it will come back with a vengeance and you will learn it the hard way ? Well, it did for me [:o]

What I can say from the couple of weeks I was active in the beta test, is that the game was very stable and I never had a CTD in over several hours of play. And that's a big big improvement for early releases by Paradox.

The other thing I can also say is that Chris Stone (MrT on our forum) did a tremendous job on the manual. You see, I never played HoI1 before, so it was interesting to be a "fresh eye" on HoI2 amongst all these HoI1 grognards. Well, between the tutorial and the manual, I think most of my questions were answered and understanding the game mechanisms and interface wasn't a problem at all.

That said, there are things I don't like it this game. For example, carrier aircraft planes are too abstracted for me (probably because I am an UV/WitP player accustom to follow my pilots by their very names [:D]). And other things I really like, the Research system for example.

It all depends what you want to play in the end. If you like wargame mostly concentrating on the operations, where your own military power is not influenced by how well you perform on the field, then play UV/WitP. If you don't like the fact that even as Japan you cannot decide to plan and produce more CV and less BB (like in WitP, where the influence a player has on production and research is almost inexistant), then you'll like HoI2.

Cheers,

Cat

[Koper]

What is the best thing you like about HoI2?

Replayability and modability. It's funny to learn this game - testing different approaches to the same problem (like making Kriegsmarine prime weapon for Germany, or not attacking West at all, trying instead to forge alliance to attack USSR), playing non-standard countries (like Czechoslovakia, one of Chineese warlords, Italy)... As for the modability, right now I'm working with team of polish fans on mod recreating 1919-1921 Polish-Bolshevik War and I find it very rewarding experience. [:)] Also, for ultimate challenge, I can always enter file that controls various bonuses/penalties on harder difficulty levels and adjust those to support AI / penalize me. It's still 1.00 version, so AI sometimes needs some support (see my comments on Eastern Front), but I see nothing wrong in that.

What is the worse thing you dislike about HoI2?

Some interface aspects are still not polished to the level I would like. Nothing big, but if I want to keep slider positions (that control units production, upgrades and reinforcements) optimized, it can be tedious work... Most of the time I just allow those slider to be positioned with small reserve, so my IC potential in used in approx. 95% instead of 100%. I got used to to it, but it could be done better.

What would you still like to see changed in HoI2?

Well, there is hardly anything I can't change in game myself (see modability comment). But I guess realistic gearing limits would be more then welcome (right now it's still too easy to switch production from land to navy/air and back), AI still needs polishing (as usual), pop-up messages could be more integrated with new interface (for example pop-up that tells you that "Unit X has ended combat patrol" could have button "Repeat" and so on).

There is always place for improvement.

Are any patches for HoI2 currently in the works?

I expect usual drill - first patch should be available soon, then next after 2-3 months, after geting more feedback from players. I don't think we'll see so many patches as it was with HoI1, but games like that can never avoid patching. Besides, I hope that some new material, like additional scenarios and campaigns will be added in patches as well (as it was the case with 1944 GC in HoI1).

[Veldor]

[ravinhood]

Applauds Veldor for his stance vs Paradox/Hoi 2 AND Blockbuster, it's time consumers took back the right to be right "always"! hehe

[freeboy]

If several more reputable reviews come in stating how great hoi2 is, and it looks like a keeper, maybe in 2006.. it really is a hard sell to players like me that are full in pbem and looking for an aggressive ai... many games "cheat" the ratios of country build etc towards helpingthe ia, I do not mind as long as the result is interesting and a challenge...

if this is another .. move here, take this, win with Brazill fiasco players should really consider themselves fortunate for MAtrix and Battlefront and all the other "niche" makers.
Anybody seen any new knews about sc2?

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

So will HOI2 be allowed to be sold in China?

The first one was banned due to severe historical innacuracies that China claimed were "distorting history and damaging China's sovereignty and territorial integrity" I've always found that funny.

Yes, communist politburos have generally been trustworthy and forthright when it comes to both the past and present.

Sure there are a few problems with WiTP but I don't think Matrix is going to decide to charge us to fix them by releasing WiTP2.

They already have, or was WiTP free for Uncommon Valour owners? It's the same game isn't it, or do upgrades only count when someone else is selling them?

My copy of WiTP next to my copy of Victoria. I have no idea which will be finished first. One's a year old, the other six months, both have some serious problems left in them.

With HOI/HOI2 there just really isn't much competition out there now or in the immediate future. Thats a sad fact that allows them to get away with a lot of things a company normally shouldn't be able to.

Indeed, although the problem looks to be industry wide. Aside from a few of the blockbuster shooters, games are still being sold with problems. The niche market sellers at least make an effort to patch their games though.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

If several more reputable reviews come in stating how great hoi2 is, and it looks like a keeper, maybe in 2006.. it really is a hard sell to players like me that are full in pbem and looking for an aggressive ai... many games "cheat" the ratios of country build etc towards helpingthe ia, I do not mind as long as the result is interesting and a challenge...

if this is another .. move here, take this, win with Brazill fiasco players should really consider themselves fortunate for MAtrix and Battlefront and all the other "niche" makers.
Anybody seen any new knews about sc2?

My guess is that this game looks a lot better to the RTS faithful, who are normally intimidated by wargames, such that they think they're approaching something stepping onto the boundaries of being a wargame. I have HoI myself, and have no intention of paying $45 again.

I have another example SEIV (Space Empires). I have the original and then they went 'gold'. The original I actually like quite a bit, but then the gold I think I could've got discounted for $15 with being a previous customer and all, but I played the gold demo and didn't see a lick of difference. Why would I want to pay another $25 for something I can't even tell is different? To make matters worse I think they made one patch for the original and then forgot about it. Now all the patches are for 'gold' only.

Funny thing is though, I didn't mind paying money for the CIV3 expansion packs. So what's the difference? With CIV3, the AI, the units, the functions all were changed, mostly for the better; there was a discernible difference of better play. The lesson, at least in my case? If I can tell the play will improve and it's not as expensive as the original, I'll buy it. I'll grant that SEIV 'gold' was likely better, but it's pretty bad when you have the demo itself (I never got one for CIV3, as I could tell by the description it was better as it went along) and can't tell the difference as I couldn't with SEIV 'gold'.

[freeboy]

I do not think real time works for large strategy games exceipt as a split like in RTW, where part of the game is a turn and part is played out in a continous time//
just my .02

[Warfare1]

To Catlord and Koper:

Thank you very much for your extensive and candid replies [:)]

I am sure you both put a lot of hard work into trying to make HoI2 a game that people will want to enjoy.

It is a large and complex game, and no doubt has been the result of a lot of blood, sweat and tears.

And you are right - nothing of this magnitude is bug free.

Form what I have been reading though, at least your efforts are steering in the right direction.

Just a couple of other questions if I may:

These questions are about the scenarios:

1) How many scenarios are there?

2) Do you have a list of what they are?

3) Can the scenarios be easily modded (changed) to be even tougher for the player to win them?

4) Can the player easily create his own scenarios from any action, date and any place in WWII?

Thanks [:)]

[CatLord]

Unfortunately I have not kept my HoI2 version up to date til the end of the beta, so I don't know which scenario did made up in the final version vs. the ones which never pass beta, so I am not the best person to answer that. Dito for modding. I am a heavy CK modder, but not an HoI2 modder.

Quite a number of people do have the game now, so I am sure if you go on the Paradox forums and ask the questions they would be happy to answer... [:)]

Cat

[freeboy]

They already have, or was WiTP free for Uncommon Valour owners? It's the same game isn't it, or do upgrades only count when someone else is selling them?

sorry yo couldn't be more wrong to say that uv and Witp are the same game

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

They already have, or was WiTP free for Uncommon Valour owners? It's the same game isn't it, or do upgrades only count when someone else is selling them?

sorry yo couldn't be more wrong to say that uv and Witp are the same game

Correct, but the UV is to WITP as HOI1 is to HOI2. Let's have consistency here and not trumpet one group while admonishing another for the same thing. UV is basically the same engine in a smaller theatre.

It's been stated that HOI2 may be stable because of HOI1, if that's the case, what on earth is the excuse for WiTP?

[ravinhood]

The difference I see is that HOI 1 and HOI 2 are in fact the same game, there's no small version vs large version in this instance. Whereas UV and WitP are in fact two quite different sizes. Thus, they aren't the same games, and they don't have a 2 beside WitP, whereas with HOI 2 they do, so they are specifically stating that HOI 2 is just another rendition of HOI 1. Although really WitP is a newer rendtion of "Pacific War" in many ways.

Also, I'm not even stating I'm a big fan of Matrixgames. I have my beefs with them also now on their pricing policy and this direct sales, direct download stuff. I don't like it, never have liked it and most likely never will like it. But, for now other than HPS games and Sharapnel games they sort of have a hand hold on getting other "great" wargames, if I want them I must comply with the "extreme high prices" and this direct download business or pay an extra $10 for a CD in a box with "no manual". So, yes, I can be critical of Matrixgames as well, but, I don't have the past experience out of Matrix games as I have out of Paradox. Paradox is just notorious for buggy, flawed and unbalanced games and their patching history and bug forum surely prove this much.

I also don't really see Paradox games as "wargames", they are era specific type games, but, I can't place a wargame on any of them, especially with this real time simulation they come with. No room for PBEM at all with this type of engine. And trying to play Multiplayer with their engine is next to impossible because of all the "pausing" really required at all different intervals by someone. They are strategy games at best. But, none of their products really comes close to being historically realistic or a wargame. Anytime anyone can take a minor like Brazil and crush the Axis, well that just speaks loudly that it's not an historically accurate wargame.

[SemperAugustus]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

The difference I see is that HOI 1 and HOI 2 are in fact the same game, there's no small version vs large version in this instance. Whereas UV and WitP are in fact two quite different sizes. Thus, they aren't the same games, and they don't have a 2 beside WitP, whereas with HOI 2 they do, so they are specifically stating that HOI 2 is just another rendition of HOI 1. Although really WitP is a newer rendtion of "Pacific War" in many ways.

By the same logic then Civilization, Civilization 2 and Civilization 3 are all the same game since they are the same size, i.e. the world. HoI1 and HoI2 cover the world yes, but HoI2 has more provinces than HoI1, just as WitP has more hexes than UV.

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Paradox is just notorious for buggy, flawed and unbalanced games and their patching history and bug forum surely prove this much.

Well it depends on how you see it, obviously they are commited to their patching games i.e. to correct their mistakes when possible. Time will say if HoI2 is buggy, flawed and unbalanced but at least it seems to be a huge improvement over HoI in terms of bugs, design and balance. Probably not enough for you but perhaps for others.

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I also don't really see Paradox games as "wargames", they are era specific type games, but, I can't place a wargame on any of them, especially with this real time simulation they come with. No room for PBEM at all with this type of engine. And trying to play Multiplayer with their engine is next to impossible because of all the "pausing" really required at all different intervals by someone. They are strategy games at best. But, none of their products really comes close to being historically realistic or a wargame.

RTS is just turns by hours, you can pause every hour if you so choose and therefore get the your turn based game. PBEM while fine for some games might not be something for everyone. Both turns and PBEM are things that come from board games, given that board games have been converted to computers new possibilities are available. Removing tedious book keeping and allowing people to play over a LAN eliminates a lot of "wasted time" waiting for an indecive player to make his or her turn. Having the turns progress continuously forces decisions on the player, something that requires a decent design and UI that eliminates timewasting ways of issuing orders. HoI2 again reduces the required interaction to run your country compared to HoI1 which makes MP a lot easier. RTS and LAN means that players that require a long to arrive at a decision can then be beaten by a player that has a clear strategy and acts decisively, which isn't terribly unrealistic as war go.

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Anytime anyone can take a minor like Brazil and crush the Axis, well that just speaks loudly that it's not an historically accurate wargame.

And is this possible in HoI2? I doubt it.
If we require historic accuracy should any game where the Axis can be win be considered historically accurate? If the vaunted Rommel, Guderian and Manstein failed to win, can a game where a person without extensive military experience can win be considered accurate?

I sincerely hope that both Matrix WaW and HoI2 sell more, which would mean more customers that get interested in strategy games. I don't think its a zero sum game. The best would be friendly competition with Matrix and Paradox copying ideas from each other and making better and better games.

[CatLord]

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

I sincerely hope that both Matrix WaW and HoI2 sell more, which would mean more customers that get interested in strategy games. I don't think its a zero sum game. The best would be friendly competition with Matrix and Paradox copying ideas from each other and making better and better games.

Hear ! Hear !

I am a fan of both company (although I am more involved on the Paradox side). And I am happy to help both survive if I can (Hell ! I bought SPWaW CD with 4 mega campaigns, and didn't even install it so far, but I thought it was only fair, as I played SPWaW for free for nearly 2 years and really enjoyed it).

Cheers,

Cat

[Error in 0]

ORIGINAL: CatLord
That said, there are things I don't like it this game. For example, carrier aircraft planes are too abstracted for me (probably because I am an UV/WitP player accustom to follow my pilots by their very names [:D]).

In what way is the aircraft planes abstracted? I believe most all aircraft operations should be abstracted in a game like this, so to ME this is good news

And I must confess your description of the AI is surprisingly inviting. I am looking forward to more reviews of HoI2, but what you have described is the best sale pitch so far.


JT

[ravinhood]

RTS and LAN means that players that require a long to arrive at a decision can then be beaten by a player that has a clear strategy and acts decisively, which isn't terribly unrealistic as war go.

First of all if these types of games were "real accurate" real time strategy games, one would have every second, every minute of every day and every month to calculate battles and logics. These rts style games do not fit the model of real time by a long shot, the time is so sped up, there isn't the time to "plan out strategy and tactics" as in a turn based game or a wego type game. Thus I don't see the realism by a long shot. Forcing a player to think faster and move faster is not my idea of a relaxing game of strategy and tactics.

Even playing chess one can "choose" to play with a timer or without one, it's not a forced issue, but, an "option".

I play games to relax and enjoy them, not to wrack my brain or get carpel tunnel in my wrist from having to play them at light speed.

The only types of games where real time fits are first person shooters. There I can accept a real time atmosphere, but, when it comes to strategy gaming or wargaming where much more thought is required only turn based or a wego system fits.

And while LAN play may be popular for a minority of players, it's certainly not the majority multiplayer play of choice. PBEM was here long before LAN and it's still one of the best multiplayer features about most turn based wargames. I would rather play a PBEM game than any other avenue of the multiplayer abilities of a game.

And yep all the Civilization series are the same and did I rush out and buy the sequels upon release? No, I did not. I got both Civ III and Play the World for less than $20 as a package and Civ II + the Scenario Disk for the same. So, I stick to my guns on "all" games, not just Paradox. Paradox games just stand out as the most bug ridden, flawed games upon release. So, for me, it makes no difference if HOI 2 is the cream of the crop, because of their past performance, I won't buy HOI 2 until 2 to 6 months down the road and of course will get an even "better" and closer to "finished" game than I would right now if I bought it out of the box (and that's the cold hard facts). And it will also be cheaper, less than $20 which is another "perfect" reason to wait 2 to 6 months after "any" game release.

Buying games now is to me like buying a new car, what fool goes out and pays the "sticker" price on a new car? If one is "patient" one will save thousands of dollars on a new car. By the same token if one is patient one will save a lot of money on software titles that certainly are going to be flawed out of the box and require patching. Thus, might as well wait for the finished model instead of buying the prototype model on the store show floor, that doesn't come with air conditioning or electric power seats and windows.

[Warfare1]

Here is quite an extensive review by a player who has played a few games of HoI2 (and he's not too happy with the game):

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/sho ... p?t=180539