Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?

[Grotius]

So Mogami, will your China be under one unified command? Any PP costs for having warlords, Communists and Nationalists work together?

[Hornblower]

Some threads have a life of there own, and this is one of those. Not as good as the Zero/F4F on in uv however. My 2 cents for what its worth. Is a safe bet that the general concusses of the forum is that historically Japan had almost no chance to defeat the Soviets/Russians. I don’t think I am off base when I say that. The IJA was a light infantry army plane and simple, better suited to jungle fighting then in the open. Light tanks, reliance on Motors over artillery, etc. They had courage beyond belief, but not the TOE to stand toe to toe with the Russians on a large scale, in the open where the Russians could bring there tanks and artillery into play. I’m not saying they couldn’t win a battle or two, but over the long haul the Russians would come out on top. Anyone here reasonably think that on the 2nd Sendi Division could stop a Russian Guard division, and if it was armored forget about it.

Now let’s suppose what some are doing game wise happened 60 years ago. IJA goes after the Soviets, knocks them out for a bit- soviets wouldn’t have surrendered, they would wait till the Germans were a non-issue. Stalin, no lover of seeing his people live out a long life, would most certainly turn his attention on Japan when he could. But for the sake of argument let’s say that happens. Soviets retreat into the depths of Russia. IJA then swings down and gobbles up all of china- ok poof there gone. So its late 42 or early 43 and both are done. The IJA now rolls into India, because its freed up its two biggest armies, and kicks out the Brits.. Bye bye… So far so good right? Some gamers have managed to do this. Now while the vast bulk of your army is in the West who is keeping an eye on the Americans and Australians? What do you garrison Truk with? Guam? Rabaul? What means do you have to hold on the solomons? IJN has only so many troops. And you can’t send the IJA into battle with the Russians/Chinese/India without air cover. So the bulk of the IJAAF is with its troops in the west. And you have to ship supplies/ammo/etc to the IJA, that takes away shipping from the DEI to Japan route. So essentially you are leaving the IJN and the IJNAF the job of holding back the USN, USMC, USAAF, etc…

Also, you have to leave a fairly large force for when the Russians come back, you have to garrison China, you’ll need to leave a decent sized army in India should Churchill want it back. And you now have this immense supply line you have to keep open to India. Japan couldn’t protect it shipping in the DEI, a 3000 mile long run to India would have made the sub skippers drool. You only have so many ships. And you’ve left your center open to an attack in the east. Honestly, what would be left to keep the American’s and Australians from going up the Solomons and NG passed Rabaul and threatens the SRA?

Now game wise is a different story. A balance needs to be struck. The Japanese player should be able to try it, but not make it easy. Right now he can knock out the soviets and Chinese, and maybe even India and rack up a huge amount of points. He has put Japan in a poor position strategically (IMHO) and open to a counter attack by the US/OZ forces- BUT he has the points to pull off the auto-victory. So what I am trying to say is that the Japanese player should defiantly have the ability to try to do this, but it should in no way make it easy.

-phewww long post. This should count as 3 or 4 posts…

[Tophat]

Mogami,
My main problem with putting all "historical" chinese forces in the OOb to "FIX" or "balance" china is that:

1) These formations were in some cases so different,nationalist Unit vs warlords gang,that they are apples and oranges.
2) The level of strength you have arrived at 755 seems far,far too high to me........
3) The increased supply levels of chinese forces.

I really don't have as much of a problem with your additions to the soviet OOB,they are infact a real Army with a table of organization and command structure.

Yes china needs to be "fixed".....no I don't believe the historical wisdom the japs could never win in china. All the japs want is an agreement so they retain some possessions and can withdrawl from the rest. The right chinese warlord is a dead nationalist and communist leader away from being topdog,foe an hour atleast.
The disagreement is having all the chinese units mobile and at 75% strength.........what kind of moral and experience will you give them?

[WiTP_Dude]

Good points. It should be very difficult for Japan to defeat China. With two players of equal skills, the Chinese should almost always win. However if the Japanese player implements a good strategy and the Chinese player makes some big mistakes, then Japan should have some success.

[Andy Mac]

For game balance Can I suggest a few fixes just to make this debate go away.

The consensus seems to be that China is under powered at the moment which I agree given that Land Combat mechanics/ three seperate china nations i.e. one two or three different china nations and the map are unlikely to change what can we practically do to make it harder to conquer without making it possible to steamroll Japanese at the same time making it possible to still achieve something.

So I am suggesting mods to the game setup and probably saying sod reality/history just to try and make the most likely outcome stalemate.

1. Chungking get 500 - 750 free supply per day to reflect the rice harvest and ability of China to exist at lower supply levels than other armies.

2. All or some Chinese Army Corps get a 3rd Division added (50% Increase in Infantry Strength no additional heavy weapons all troops disrupted at start)

3. Chungking and all hexes surrounding Chungking get a static garrison force of 4 - 5 Corps forces are infantry only with support and are immobile.

so 7 forces of 5 Corps c 35 new static corps that can only move after they have been retreated in combat

4. All fort levels for both sides are increased 2 levels

[WiTP_Dude]

So you are saying the current strength of a flushed out Chinese Corps is 375 assualt points? That is what, 75% the strength of a flushed out Japanese division? Sounds exactly as Orbat has defined it when factoring in troop and equipment quality. Mogami wants to add forces that didn't exist within the regular KMT army.

[moses]

Good points. It should be very difficult for Japan to defeat China. With two players of equal skills, the Chinese should almost always win. However if the Japanese player implements a good strategy and the Chinese player makes some big mistakes, then Japan should have some success

Agreed. Now back to the original problem. The problem will not in my opinion be fixed by OOB changes.

The problem is that the game system gives an overwhelming edge to the superior force. This applies to Japan in the early going and will apply to the allies later on. In each case it causes unrealistic results to occur.

Historically attacking was not the cakewalk it is in the game. By bringing massive force to bear you could insure victory but you had to take your lumps. In the game the superior side can advance at a relentless pace with very few casalties. There is no point in fighting a delaying action in the game in any theater. Your smaller units will just get annihilated at no loss to the enemy. This is what makes China, Burma and India attractive places in which to attack. An invasion of for example Changsa could be attempted IRL and might even succeed but for certain the attacking force even in avictory would be in no shape for further offensive action. The Chinese would then have a chance to regroup, counterattack etc. In the game Japan can often take Changsa for no casualties at all. The defending Chinese are retreated and lose a quarter of their troops and what little morale they have left. It takes months to get the Chinese units back in decent shape while the Japanese defenders now sit on the rail line at 100% strength.

Changing the OOB may well be able to stop the Japanese but the same game problems will still be there when the allies become superior. Then it will be the allies who can attack without casualties. And by making the allies stronger in the beginning you move forward the date at which they will achieve this superior position.

Therefore I think balance should be achieved using modifications to the combat model as the primary tool.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: moses

Good points. It should be very difficult for Japan to defeat China. With two players of equal skills, the Chinese should almost always win. However if the Japanese player implements a good strategy and the Chinese player makes some big mistakes, then Japan should have some success

Agreed.

Also "the Chinese should almost always win" really means "won't lose", not they will push the Japanese out of Asia.

[WiTP_Dude]

The Chinese lack of combat engineers are going to be a problem when trying to reduce fortifications. I don't think a China with additional non-KMT divisions will be able to take forts down very quickly at all.

[Tophat]

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

The Chinese lack of combat engineers are going to be a problem when trying to reduce fortifications. I don't think a China with additional non-KMT divisions will be able to take forts down very quickly at all.

Good..they most certainly shouldn't be able to!

moses....I really don't think the powers that be will change the land combat system...granted you just want to see more disruption equate to killed for the attacker. I also agree with you that would be the way to go...have the attacker experience some real losses for his efforts!

[moses]

The Chinese lack of combat engineers are going to be a problem when trying to reduce fortifications. I don't think a China with additional non-KMT divisions will be able to take forts down very quickly at all.

Most of Japanese held China is clear terrain so it won't be like what we are experienceing in Chungking. Plus in all that clear terrain Japan won't just be able to defend in the cities or they will be cut off. Also the Chinese will be able to accept massive losses in the initial attacks

You've seen what the Chinese shock attack can do especially in clear terrain. You add a division to each of those corps and I will be on the offensive by April. Add two divisions to each of those 72 Chinese corps and you can forget about it.

Plus you're attempting a small bomber operation in our game and your supply base consists of two cities and your airlift!! Think what is possible if you held all your starting bases plus we're talking about added resource centers.

[moses]

moses....I really don't think the powers that be will change the land combat system...granted you just want to see more disruption equate to killed for the attacker. I also agree with you that would be the way to go...have the attacker experience some real losses for his efforts!

Why not. They're going to have to look at ground combat again anyway in light of the problems with small unit attacks outlined in the Changsa AAR thread. It can't be that difficult to do something simple like increase attacker losses by 25%.

One myth is that this is just about China. But think about the Pacific theater and why it is that Japanese players can so far exceed the historical timeline. I'm not talking about the first move issues. Even with an historical start you can take the SRA far faster than was possible in reality. Plus you don't really even need all your troops to do it. Why is that? I'll tell you.

The reason is you take almost no losses. There is no penalty for a poorly supported operation. As long as you get the troops ashore you're going to be fine. You will eventually beat down the isolated allied force and at the end of the day you will take no ground losses. (Ground units can be destoyed at sea of course). You've got a few disabled elements for sure but these recover quickly and off goes your unit to a new battle. IRL I have to make sure that my force is not only stronger then the enemy, but strong enough to complete the operation quickly and with minimum loss. In the game it doesn't matter. You're not going to get anyone killed anyway.

The allies will benifit from the same effect later on. Land on Iwo Jima. Fight for a three weeks. Ohh Zero men killed? Off to the next island.

Perhaps I exagerate. You will take a loss here and there but the effect I describe is real.

So why not make a few adjustments to balance the thing out.

[Mr.Frag]

moses, I don't think you clearly understand the relationship between combat effectiveness and supply. Not enough supply means up to 75% reduction in combat effect. ie: 3 poorly supplied divisions have the same strength as 1 supplied division.

Due to the poor supply situation in China, Japan will be able to counter any China agression by bringing in 1-2 turns worth of air power targeting base hexes to deplete the supply link. Bases will not give up supply as long as they need it which means any unit *not* in a base hex will be cut off and dropped to 25% strength following this little air blitz.

As you can well imagine, having a combat assault value of 3000 in a hex against 1500 Japanese strength to suddenly have it go to 750 in the middle of your attack is going to leave a big pile of bodies.

Your only option to move forward is to completely abandon bases behind you to drop the supply holdback to zero. For obvious reasons, leaving a base open for the grabbing of Japanese Paratroopers is rather silly.

[moses]

Mr Frag:

Thank you for addressing the combat system.

The supply situation in China appears to be less precarious than I thought prior to my current game with WITTP-Dude. He is still fighting with only 300 resourse pts producing and an air lifline which can't be sending more than 3 or 4 hundred SP per day and has enough to operate B17's. So If china holds Changsa which is likely with an upgunned force structure, then I think there is no supply problem. With the increased force structure that Mogami is talking about there will be a greater supply requirement but he is talking about adding resourses so again it does not appear to be a problem. So I don't think supply will be a problem.

Now when a base has say a supply requirement of 20,000 I have seen many times that it has dropped below this very rapidly. Often the supply levels fluctuate back and forth quite dramatically for reasons that are not always clear. But I assume it is because they are sending supply to outside units which causes their supply to drop into the orange level. So I am of the impression that supply will still be transfered at least until the base goes into the red. Is this what your refering to?

Now units hold about 1 months supply. So even a unit which is cut off does not suffer the 25% reduction until that is out. Or is the effect phased in? When I fight cut off units they seem to fight at full effectiveness until supply is out at which pt they rapidly collapse. I think I remember you discussing this before.

[Kereguelen]

Some data about Chinese troop strenghts (from various sources) thrown in for good measure:

In 1945 the Chinese Nationalists (KMT and their allies) had 3700000 soldiers, 1600000 rifles (that means one rifle for every third soldier!) and 6000 guns and mortars. The Chinese Communists had 320000 soldiers, 160000 rifles and 700 guns and mortars.

According to a somewhat sketchy Orbat about the Chinese forces in Burma there were 3 armies with 9 divisions (the divisions that are subject to SEAC in the game). 5th Army (LTG Tu Yu-ming) with 22nd, 96th, 200th Divisions and as army troops 1 cavalry regiment, 1 artillery regiment, 1 engineer regiment, 1 armoured regiment, 1 motor regiment (no unit designations in the Orbat for these), 6th Army (LTG Kan Li-chu) with 40th, 55th, 93rd divisions with 1 engineer battalion and the 1st Bn/13th Artillery Regiment as army troops, 66th Army (LTG Chang Chen) with 28th, 29th, 38th Divisions and the 1st Bn/18th Artillery Regiment. Each division had three regiments of about battalion size without any divisional support units (it's not clear if there was included any artillery in the regimental organization, maybe some mortars and light guns?). A Chinese division equaled (infantry strenght) a British brigade and an Army/Corps maybe a division. Maybe the artillery battalions at Army level were of the somewhat heavier class (105mm howitzers or something like this). It seems that the Chinese here had not very much artillery, but the troops shown here had come to Burma via the Burma Road...

Interesting in other aspects is a map about the situation in China that can be found online (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/ch ... 5(map).jpg) that gives some information about the Chinese troop strenghts in October, 1944. The map lists Chinese troop strenghts in the various War Areas. By roughly dividing the troop strenghts there through the number of armies present it seems that Chinese armies had indeed very variable strenghts (between 7000 and 20000 soldiers).

And I think that the terms Army and Corps were not used in a standartised mannner which sometimes adds to the confusion about Chinese strenghts.

K

[Al_Anger]

(Hint WITP is a game about air power)

Air War In The Pacific. Sounds more like it.[:)]

[moses]

Ground war in the Pacific.[;)]

Ships and planes are just ground force transporters. A battleship is just a boat that carries artilleryman. A fighter is just a winged machine gunner. A carrier is a winged machine gun transporter. A torpedo is an engineering device used to dig artilleryman out of their boats.

[Ron Saueracker]

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