Demo Comments

[Gregor_SSG]

ORIGINAL: merrillh

Just "tried" the demo, and the lack of cursor pass over tool tips made me want to pass over the game.

Some hint as to what the buttons did by passing your cursor over them is a standard. Not sure why this very helpful function was omitted.

Hunter

There are two help levels in the game. Right clicking over buttons gives a short description. Cycling the 'q' key will change the display in the bottom middle of the screen to show up to three lines of help text for items on the main screen or the battlefield popup. The tutorial starts with feature on by default, probably we should have forced that on for the demo as well.

Gregor

[MadScot]

Well, it seems to me that one of the purposes behind launching a demo is to gain exposure of your game to a wider customer group than would buy it 'sight unseen'. By doing so you may either gain additional sales or gain feedback from people as to why they won't buy it, or maybe what could be different so that they would buy it (or a later development).

Now, I've not decided on whether I fall into the former category yet, but there are things that, if they were different, would push me closer to that point. Seems to me that nothing but "this is great, give us more of the same" feedback is never going to advance a game beyond its current scope and market. So I'll nitpick away, in the hope that it helps someone understand why I might or might not buy the game.

[TheHellPatrol]

[8|]If they changed their "badges" and counter graphics it would be like any other wargame ever made, albeit with a top-notch ai. Those of us who have played since the first Ardennes iteration, and set in our ways, are not likely to react positively to such a "retro" act of degradation[X(]. The beautiful maps and excellent counter graphics, badges, and backgrounds, give a flavor and distinction that make SSG games unique. Everything you need is a mouse-click away and it's darn pretty to look at[:)]. The idea about the demo, IMO, is to expose people to the gameplay and challenge of the ai...not to invite critique over "artistic preferences"[;)].

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: MadScot

Well, it seems to me that one of the purposes behind launching a demo is to gain exposure of your game to a wider customer group than would buy it 'sight unseen'. By doing so you may either gain additional sales or gain feedback from people as to why they won't buy it, or maybe what could be different so that they would buy it (or a later development).

Now, I've not decided on whether I fall into the former category yet, but there are things that, if they were different, would push me closer to that point. Seems to me that nothing but "this is great, give us more of the same" feedback is never going to advance a game beyond its current scope and market. So I'll nitpick away, in the hope that it helps someone understand why I might or might not buy the game.

Trouble is MadScot KP sold well and that too had a vocal minority about the graphics, mainly about the map. BiN has the same but a developer is never going to chnage a game for a minority. I too feel that changing the counter graphics would be a retro alteration. I'm not a savvy wargamer, I don't come from a history of boardgames but I do find the counter graphics far easier to recognise than in any other game.

Suggestions on how to improve gameplay and add to the system would be taken on board without any bad feeling compared to what the graphics look like, which in this case has strong support by fans of the game.

[MadScot]

Well, I'm trying damn hard to like this game because there aren't that many wargames out there. edit I'm never going to use a BiN or KP map as a desktop wallpaper - something I have done with other games, including from the same publisher - but I am endeavouring to look past the graphics. Trying to work out where the terrain features are on the Ardennes map are giving me nightmares, though.

On the tutorials, I would note that there seem to be some typos - it refers to buttons that don't seem to exist, like a "load lesson" button? I assume this is just a leftover from a previous version of the interface?

Something I never saw explained in the text was that the number of little green/yellow/whatever bars is a stacking indicator - maybe it's so obvious no-one thought of it, but being slow on the uptake it took me a while to spot it.

I don't know if there's any way to smooth the fonts? It looks a bit 'blocky' (yes, graphics again, can't help it). Maybe there's a preferences setting for it?

It'd be nice to have more than one map scaling option - if I understand the interface correctly, you have a default hex size and a strategic view and that's all. I found myself wishing there was a way to have a more zoomed in scale - perhaps showing all the units in a hex at once, so it'd be about 2-2.5* the current size? Obviously you'd see less of the overall map, but it might make finessing the local battles easier? (I think I'd rather have a zoomed-in map and scroll it around more than have to right-click to 'inspect the stacks' every time - some board games went to oversized hexes to ease the stacking issue a bit, IIRC)

Finally (for now) the jump from the very small scale canned tutorial lessons to the size of the demo is a bit forbidding; suddenly there's a huge map with what looks like hundreds of units. It'd be a lot easier to learn the feel of the game with a smaller scenario - and I suspect more people would 'try it out' with a smaller scenario, too. (Although I guess you could say the tutorial is that smaller scenario?)

[Fred98]

In my view the map graphics in TAO3 (KP) are superior to the map graphics in TAO4 (BIN).

And the map graphics in the Normandy scenarios are noticably better than those in the TAO4 scenario

[TheHellPatrol]

@MadScot: If you hold the "Alt" key you get a magnifying glass which helps. The Ardennes scenario is a more complex scenario, but BiN has MUCH under the hood to digest. I am a professional wargamer IMO[;)] and it took me quite a long time to understand the "finesse" involved in winning. The "bars" you referred to are explained in detail in the manual(which isn't included in the demo i assume) but i suggest you go to the SSG website forums where you will find most every detail discussed to enlighten those who seek knowledge[&o]. The load tutorial IIRC loads a certain tutorial scenario to be played along with the tutorial manual/readme which may be in the demo documents. BiN is indeed very easy to play but difficult to master[:)].

[MadScot]

@THP : [&o] Thanks, that spyglass thing is great

I'll try the forums you mentioned - surprised to see that the developer and publisher maintain separate sites (I assume that's what it is?)

I have to admit the interface and graphics DO get less annoying as I persevere - doubt they'll ever be a fave, but I may get used to them at least.....

[MadScot]

Quick question. Somehow I once managed to turn off the feature that shades the parts of the map you can't move to. The manual/tutorial book says it's 'by default' but doesn't hint how to actually get it back. I looked for a list of hotkeys and found one here, but there isn't one that seems to correspond. Any clues?

[TheHellPatrol]

ORIGINAL: MadScot

Quick question. Somehow I once managed to turn off the feature that shades the parts of the map you can't move to. The manual/tutorial book says it's 'by default' but doesn't hint how to actually get it back. I looked for a list of hotkeys and found one here, but there isn't one that seems to correspond. Any clues?

Bottom left hand corner of your screen is the "control panel" (round w/icons) click the one that looks like a map ("map options") and look for "unit movement" or "movement" IIRC, there you can toggle it on/off and FYI it lists the hotkey. Sorry i don't remember it offhand[:)]. P.S. you'll see all the "hotkeys" for that menu though there are more that were added later[8D].EDIT: it's "x"[&o]

[P_DEX]

The demo contains two PDF's. One is a tutorial PDF and the other is a gameplay PDF.

At any rate, I'm one of the dozen or so guys that I know of who always fights the urge to jump into any game before giving the manual a thorough going-over. Now, I'm not a hard-core wargamer by any stretch but I do like wargames (make sense?). In my "hardcore" wargame collection I have Uncommon Valor, which I really enjoy. My limited boardgame experience has been a small handful of solitaire ones and never the "elite" boardgames with their encyclopedia-sized gameplay manuals and 100,000 half-inch counters. I'm kind of a "loner" when it comes to boardgames so good solitaire play is always a plus for me.

I LOVED SSG's Carriers at War series in the early 90's. Read some good things about Korsun Pocket and thought BiN was something I would eventually be intersted in. Now, thanks to SSG releasing a demo, I can try it out for myself. Very first impression was "Oh my God...my frickin' head hurts!" and almost blew the game off as WAY over my head. So much information! The main map is huge! How the hell am I gonna control all of this?! This, of course, was me trying to jump in before the reading of the manual. So, I printed out the manual at work on the quality laser printer and spend a good portion of my lunch breaks reading. I'm starting to get it now. It's beginning to make much more sense. A couple of more reads (oh yeah, I'll do it!) and I'll feel confident I can jump into the tutorials and get slaughtered.

Thank you for the demo, SSG. I can't promise at this moment that I'm going to purchase BiN but I'm darn sure promising you that I'm giving it my best effort.

[MadScot]

"x" seems to be the key that darkens a previously moved unit.

What I'm looking for - and I wish I knew how to get it back - is the thing that, when you select a unit, darkens the HEXES that you can't get to with your current OPs. i.e. it changes the map in the same way as the supply mode thing makes it different colours, except this is just dark and normal.

[Krec]

finally downloaded the demo and gave it a try. actually have been fiddling around with it for a week now and my first impression are :

1: the map/units are just too small , my eyes hurt when playin this game. (i know about the alt tab. pain in the arse imo)

2: hard to tell the diff of same units. ie armor i or armor ii . too darn small to read

3. while the interface is probably fine once you GET USE TO IT. an interface should be intuative and again easy to SEE what each button does . although the interface is functional it just doesnt feel right. i get the feeling i am jumpin all over the place to see whats goin on.

basically i am the type of gamer who likes to sit down and get the gest of things in about 15-20 mins. couldnt do it with this one. wanted to like it just cant get past the darn screen size. i have great eye site and this darn game really bugs the heck out of me . i am sure its great once you get past the learning curve. ill keep tryin , 800x600 is the way to go imo, ive read why it was done this way but we all dont have 21inch screens. i am on a 19 inch and still is too small. just my opinion

[MadScot]

Re my previous comments about unit IDs. Just finished a KP scenario (I dug out the disk, which I'd consigned to the shelf in disgust previously). Playing as the commies, I found something very nice (for me) and very interesting. Russian units have division or corps ID numbers on the units, not just symbols like the Germans. Which I found much more palatable.

Since it obviously is graphically doable to put the ID on the counters, I really would like that be there as an option, if nothing else. Bizarre runic symbols may appeal to some, but they really are offputting.

(I guess the reason it's done that way for the russkies is that they don't have division insignia, or at least not famous ones.)?

[MadScot]

ORIGINAL: MadScot

Quick question. Somehow I once managed to turn off the feature that shades the parts of the map you can't move to. The manual/tutorial book says it's 'by default' but doesn't hint how to actually get it back. I looked for a list of hotkeys and found one here, but there isn't one that seems to correspond. Any clues?

OK, answering my own question (found it by reading through the manual). There's a key called "Toggle Dark Move Area" in the "Unit Control Panel", which is the one I must have hit by accident.

[pterrok]

See, we just have to disagree...I LOVE the division insignia--it's makes it so easy to tell at a glance who is related to who, as it were. And since I'm a game player more than a war historian, I didn't know (nor really care) what division was which, I just needed to know who was better and who was worse, which I learned by looking at their capabilities.

But having played the game so much, I now KNOW a lot of those division insignia on sight--I LEARNED something from the game!--and when they pop-up in different scenarios they are like old friends and I KNOW that this particular patch means it is probably one of my better divisions or one of my 'throw-aways'.

When I play the Soviets in KP I am SLOWED DOWN since they apparently DIDN'T have unique division insignia--so I'm left at looking at masses of units which look all the same and struggling to try and make out the unit number. I end up relying on the hex highlight under division-mates more for them than anyone else...

Your whole argument seems to be implying that it's important to you to know that the unit you're moving around is the 101st Airborne Division, for example. If so, I'm surprised that you don't KNOW their shoulder patch already! If it's NOT important to you to know that you're moving around Panzer Lehr, for example, then it's still easy to see you're moving around the Capital L's! (The closest one I can think of to a bizarre runic symbol!)

Yes you CAN design a game without graphics--but people usually argue for MORE graphics simply because they can convey more info in a easier to distinguish format. Why, after all, do most armies HAVE shoulder patches to show what division their in?

[MadScot]

Well, I'm not suggesting they remove the shoulder patch graphics, but perhaps make it an option? Or do like the Soviet units, and ADD the unit ID (abbreviated as required) to the graphic (the Soviet units do have a graphic, it's just generic) - again optionally? Just like some games allow people to swap between NATO standard symbology (which actually provides more info, if you have the secret decoder ring) and equipment pictures and the like (which are more accessible, and which some people prefer). Things like the HoI-type games swapping between dolls and counters - some people prefer each type, some quite strongly. The best solution is to make everyone happy if you can.

In terms of the utility of learning the shoulder patches vs the unit names; if I were to now go and read up on the battle as a consequence of interest piqued by the game, I would find references to 5th Guards Tank Army and to 17th Panzer Division, for example. i would not find the units referred to by means of unit insignia. Even if I know the patches, I still need to know the names to read about them.

[pterrok]

I have the full game, not the demo, so I'm not sure if both of these are in there, but you CAN find out the names of the divisions--in fact you pretty much have to do the one to play effectively...

When you right-click on a unit to call up the pop-up info window, you can then move the mouse over one of the units in the stack on the left side of the pop-up screen to see its details, and in the upper right corner of that view is their division name and patch and division integrity bonus and radius. You need to view these details to see the steps an enemy has so you know how their shock/AT values and AF/DF are going to change when you knock a step off them, so I know it's gotta be in the demo.

The easier way, of course, is simply to click on the OOB button! You can page through the armies and you'll see the 101st Airborne with the units with their patches shown under the text label! (I suppose it's possible the demo does not have the OOB button, apologies in advance if this is the case.)

Note that I don't disagree with you that having the option to switch the patch display to text is an addition that would add some value--the problem is that I think the value added would be slight. On the Run5 discussion threads many things are mentioned and suggested and moaned about, and SSG DOES listen to the ones that seem to have the most support and/or ones that tickle their fancy.

I've suggested many, MANY ideas for improvements and it's cool when one of them gets implemented, but I know that it's not a democracy--it's their game and no matter how great I think my idea is, they are the ones who have to code it or draw the art to get it done. (Besides, if it WAS a democracy, I think I've seen one other person who would vote to get this changed display, vs all the unknown number of people who would vote to spend that same amount of implementation time to add a different feature instead!)

[darth_stalin_1]

hi i was wondering about the demo. how do you beat the battle of the buldge campain has the german army.the ai was too tough for me.

[darth_stalin_1]

i couldnot win on the battle of the buldge campain on the demo does anyone gave any strategies on hw to beat the thedemo.