World at War or Hearts of Iron?

bal541 · Post by **bal541** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:21 pm

Hey guys, I'm new to the wargamer community and I have a couple of questions. I've always been a World War II fan, watch it on the history channel a lot, and I'm looking to buy a good World War II game.

I read about Hearts of Iron awhile ago and it got a 90% by PC Gamer. I also found this sight and World at War looks really good, plus it was made in 2005 as opposed to 2002 for Hearts of Iron.

Any recommendations? Thanks.

Oleg Mastruko · Post by **Oleg Mastruko** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:45 pm

WAW is most certainly easier to get into. [:D]

O.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:21 pm

I was in the same boat bal541. I am quite interested in WW2 (read alot about it) and was looking for a good war game. (Note that HOI2 is a January 2004 release I think.. not 2002... that was the original HOI.)

Saw Hearts of Iron 2 (read reviews etc.) and picked it up... was completely overwhelmed. It's a very deep game that I know I will love in the future, but I needed something more 'accessible" to start with. Decided I'd put that on the backburner for a bit and play World at War for a while, then jump back to HOI2 later.

World of War is by no means simple, but compared to HOI2 it is much easier to get into and get the flow of these types of games. It's also turn-based and not real time, so that helps a bit. (The pause feature in HOI2 also can be used to make it feel more turn-based.)

I'm quite intrigued by War in the Pacific as well, but I think I need a year with WAW and HOI2, perhaps some Steel Panthers:WAW as well... lot's more historical reading, and THEN I'll think about War In the Pacific.[&o]

If you get WAW, want to play noob vs. noob on PBEM sometime? We can both try to fumble our way to accidental victories, or perhaps even coop as the Axis or Allies and try to take out the CPU.

nirvana · Post by **nirvana** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:35 pm

I bought HoI2 as a relative newcomer, and could never get into it, it was just way too complicated for me to have any fun with. WaW is taking a lot of learning, but is a lot easier to pick up. You can play WaW without knowing too much about how its working, and i tend to learn those things as im playing, and losing

If your an expert with Wargames, then HoI offers more depth, if your a newer player WaW is a much better choice. I have owned HoI2 for a long time, and despite trying dozens of times to get into it and learn how to play, it was just too overwhelming for me.

Cheesehead · Post by **Cheesehead** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:42 pm

HoI2 is a great game, but unless you play multiplayer (which requires you and your opponents to be online playing at the same time) its re-playability is limited. The AI is impressive when compared to the AI in other wargames, but it still is not challenging enough to keep you interested after you've played most of the major powers once. WaW, on the other hand, offers PBEM which makes this game as replayable as you have different opponents. Judging by the number of new "faces" on this forum, it looks like you could spend a lifetime playing this game. My advice: Buy both [:)]

dobeln · Post by **dobeln** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:46 pm

Both are nice games, but I definately prefer WaW. At least until the (huge) HOI II patch arrives in a couple of weeks.

In short: If you have to choose - get WaW!

Hertston · Post by **Hertston** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:38 pm

ORIGINAL: bal541

Hey guys, I'm new to the wargamer community and I have a couple of questions. I've always been a World War II fan, watch it on the history channel a lot, and I'm looking to buy a good World War II game.

I read about Hearts of Iron awhile ago and it got a 90% by PC Gamer. I also found this sight and World at War looks really good, plus it was made in 2005 as opposed to 2002 for Hearts of Iron.

Any recommendations? Thanks.

I don't think the dates are significant (although don't forget Hearts of Iron 2 is a 2005 game as well, although graphically its pretty much unchanged) - they rarely are with wargames.

As usual, it depends what you want. HoI2 is a more complex game, which may or may not be a good thing for you. WaW has better AI (i.e a more challenging opponent) than HoI, I havn't really played enough HoI2 to comment. One reason for that is that it just takes so long to finish an HoI2 game.. sure you could play Argentina or something for an evening's game, but most want to play one of the "big four" and HoI games seem to last forever. WaW you can play in an evening which is a huge plus for me.

The only other thing you might want to consider is what sort of "WW2 game" you want. Neither WaW or HoI2 are "wargames" except in the broadest sense - they are strategy games (all wargames are strategy games, but not all strategy games are wargames [;)] ). Maybe you would prefer true wargames such as Matrix's "Highway to the Reich" or "Battles in Normandy". Try Steel Panthers: World at War, if nothing else - the basic game is free !

Dalwin · Post by **Dalwin** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:13 pm

They are both very good games.

WAW is easier to learn.

HOI2 is currently somewhat flawed but should be much better after its next patch. Even with the flaws it is still a lot of fun.

HOI2 takes a lot of time. This can be either a good or bad point depending on your situation.

Even though both games include the "what if" possibilities to some extent, there is certainly a lot more ability to experiment in HOI2.

WaW is turn based.

HOI2 is real time with pauses as needed.

the_redstar_swl · Post by **the_redstar_swl** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:10 am

HOI2 is real time with pauses as needed.

Thats the one thing that realy killed HOI and HOI2 for me.
Plus I'd spend 20-40 Minutes just starting the game

RetardedNameRequired · Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:17 am

Where are you guys getting info about upcoming patch for HOI2? i'd like to look into it, but its official site must be down or something main site for HOI2 is up but www.paradoxplaza.com (which is its forum site and such) is not comeing up for me

i'm enjoying WAW, but may like to also try HOI2, i liked the first one but the absolutly neccesary micromanagment got old, although from what little i have read that has been alleviated to some extent possibly making it much more enjoyable

i like to be ABLE to micromanage not REQUIRED to

Fan Of Rommel · Post by **Fan Of Rommel** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:05 am

Many valid points above. But if you are looking to chose between the two, no question the most important point is that GGWAW is PBEM the other is real-time (someone said this above). That is a huge difference..., HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE.

PBEM is for thinkers and allows you to have a life in the real world because you can get to your turn at your leisure. Real time (which I hate, but I could not resist checking HoI2 out) is also for thinkers but just at a different level. And your speed of thought, knowing some game "tricks", and memorizing hotkeys have a significant effect on what happens in Real time, no traits for wargamers, IMO.

Now if HoI2 was turn based..., man, you would have one KICK BUTT game. That is an awesome game. If you want intense details on HOI2, I have them.

My opinion, try this GGWAW (I just bought it and I have not opened box, but I had been following the AARs in the Forum the past few months.) This one looks eal good. Just do not play someone who is a grizzled vet or you will get smoked.

If you do not like GGWAW, stay with turn-based.., they are just better.

Lastly, if you do not find this challenging enough, try HPS Simulations.., man, I wasted 5 years my life there.., those games are great, but you get huge headaches from all the thinking.

I am sorry I am rambling, I have never posted to GGWAW before. But that mention of HoI2 really caught my eye.

Good gaming to all

Dalwin · Post by **Dalwin** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:42 am

ORIGINAL: RetardedNameRequired

Where are you guys getting info about upcoming patch for HOI2? i'd like to look into it, but its official site must be down or something main site for HOI2 is up but www.paradoxplaza.com (which is its forum site and such) is not comeing up for me

i'm enjoying WAW, but may like to also try HOI2, i liked the first one but the absolutly neccesary micromanagment got old, although from what little i have read that has been alleviated to some extent possibly making it much more enjoyable i like to be ABLE to micromanage not REQUIRED to

The official forums for HOI2 seem to go down for a few hours almost every day. The pages also load very slowly.

The only official announcement recently made about the patch was that it would be out in a few weeks. This was said a few weeks ago. Johan vaguely mentioned that all concerns would be addressed in the patch. Clearly not the case since many of the concerns expressed in the forum contradicted each other depending on individual players' tastes.

The original stated intent on the date of release was that the second patch would be the AI improvement patch. That is what I referrred to when saying the game would be much better after the patch. In HOI1, the AI enhancements eventually improved the game greatly. Of the several flaws in the current version of HOI2, weak AI is foremost.

bal541 · Post by **bal541** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:42 am

Thanks for all the responses guys. I decided to buy WaW and buy Hearts of Iron when I finish WaW. I've never played a wargame before so HoO2 is probably WAY out of my league.

Anyways, went to Best Buy today and couldn't find WaW. I asked the guy too to check his computer. No luck. Guess I will order it online. Can't wait to play!

Oh yeah, I"d love to play some PBEM with you guys. Give me a week or two to get the hang of it though. I'll post in the looking for opponents thread when I feel ready.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:08 pm

EB should have a copy or two. The stores up here in Toronto appear to each have gotten ONE copy. (Of course they take the disc and manual out and display the box on the shelf, so I end up with what is technically an opened game... which they reseal of course.)

SimpleSOB · Post by **SimpleSOB** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:26 pm

Having been an avid player of Hearts of Iron since the original all I can say is that HOI2 is a seriously flawed game. Almost every aspect of the game has problems, all the way from the basic combat mechanics to the graphics (ie same sprites for all units --> cant tell which units are which without clicking ten buttons). I just bought WAW so I hope it is a little more smooth and mechanistically correct. I would stay away from HOI2 until major revisions are performed with respect to patching.

The only major complaint I have on the surface with WAW is the lack of TCP/IP support. Is there a plan to incorporate this feature in future patches (I will probably start a separate thread on this subject)

solops · Post by **solops** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:37 pm

I have HOI, HOI2 and WaW. WaW is the most stable of the three, better balanced and, most importantly, it is the only one of the three whose AI offers a challenge. It has far less micromanagement. WaW does not have nearly the detail of HOI 1&2 that makes their intricate model of systems do so many odd things. The number of options and details in the HOI games also makes it impossible for an AI to respond in a challenging fashion, there are simply too many options. None of the three games are realistic in a real-world sense. WaW is "simplifed" and the others are detailed. Of the two resulting computer models, WaW gives better results and more of a challenge, IMO.

SimpleSOB · Post by **SimpleSOB** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:45 pm

ORIGINAL: solops

I have HOI, HOI2 and WaW. WaW is the most stable of the three, better balanced and, most importantly, it is the only one of the three whose AI offers a challenge. It has far less micromanagement. WaW does not have nearly the detail of HOI 1&2 that makes their intricate model of systems do so many odd things. The number of options and details in the HOI games also makes it impossible for an AI to respond in a challenging fashion, there are simply too many options. None of the three games are realistic in a real-world sense. WaW is "simplifed" and the others are detailed. Of the two resulting computer models, WaW gives better results and more of a challenge, IMO.

I agree, but the fundamental flaws associated with HOI are just too glaring to overlook. Honestly, after hundreds of hours of gameplay its obvious that the game was put out in an unfinished half baked state.

Dalwin · Post by **Dalwin** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:54 pm

ORIGINAL: SimpleSOB

Having been an avid player of Hearts of Iron since the original all I can say is that HOI2 is a seriously flawed game. Almost every aspect of the game has problems, all the way from the basic combat mechanics to the graphics (ie same sprites for all units --> cant tell which units are which without clicking ten buttons). I just bought WAW so I hope it is a little more smooth and mechanistically correct. I would stay away from HOI2 until major revisions are performed with respect to patching.

The only major complaint I have on the surface with WAW is the lack of TCP/IP support. Is there a plan to incorporate this feature in future patches (I will probably start a separate thread on this subject)

Each to his own opinion of course, but saying that it is flawed in every aspect is way over the top. This is especially true if your biggest complaint is the sprites. I know that you WANT to use sprites, but the game encourages you to use counters. These are very functional and the majority of posters on the forum seem to prefer the counters in any case.

To me, the combat system in HOI2 is one of the best I ahve ever seen. Yet it is too complicated for some. Others have trouble accepting that the "battle" is over in a few hours when in fact the battle is really not over until you have finished advancing into the territory and the former defender's counter attacks beaten back.

It is a very complicated game and almost anyone can find some aspect of it that they don't like. That is still not to say that every aspect is flawed.

To be honest, I was slightly disappointed that WaW did not have a counter option. I think it is the sprites only appearance that is responsible for most of the A&A comparisons even though the two games have very little in common.

Cheesehead · Post by **Cheesehead** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:30 pm

The only other thing you might want to consider is what sort of "WW2 game" you want. Neither WaW or HoI2 are "wargames" except in the broadest sense - they are strategy games (all wargames are strategy games, but not all strategy games are wargames

[&:] You want to clarify that? It may only be semantics, but I don't understand how a game modelled after the greatest war in history is only vaguely considered to be a wargame. You seem to imply that only tactical level games such as HttR or BiN are true wargames. While these may be excellent games, they are no more true to the genre than something on the strategic level, such as WaW or HoI2. As a person who prefers strategic wargames I resent your slight [;)] [not really, I'm just in the mood for an argument...you're certainly entitled to your opinion] [:)]

Barthheart · Post by **Barthheart** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:41 pm

Great tag line Cheesehead....[:D][:D][:D] Loved that movie!