PBEM from May 42: Mogami-san VS Capt. Ron

[mogami]

Hi, If the defender does not have flank and rear security then the speed of movement does not matter. I mean if it takes 3 days to surround or 10 days to surround it is not important.
I think it is pretty funny to use "I can't protect my flanks and still hold a hex" All that means is you don't belong in the hex to begin with.

In China there should be a line of hexes with CHinese units on them. Maybe not a solid line but certainly at least 3 hexes wide on all road approaches. The flank stacks should hold enough to drive a Japanese division back. Chinese should just surround any Japanese advance that does not provide flank security.

If you can't protect a hex you don't belong in the hex.

[Bradley7735]

Mogami, the problem is that the two flanks take weeks to move and the center (on the road) takes a couple of days. So, you risk losing your flanks when the attacker concentrates on the road and forces your center back. Your flanks can't move back as fast as the attacker can force your center even further back. Now, both your flanks are in the rear. they can't move fast enough to cut off the attacking unit from supply, nor move fast enough to secure the flanks or retreat to relative safety.

In Burma, you could march from Rangoon to Mykitnia before one unit can march through one off-road hex. Any unit you use to secure your flank is more like a fortress (unmovable) than a true flanking unit.

In my game vs the AI, I retook Mykitnia with the British. One British unit went off road between Mykitnia and Lahore. The main British force has since taken Mykinia, Mandalay and (the base closer to Rangoon) and that one unit near Mykitnia is still in the same hex, moving to Mykitnia. It moves at 1 mile per day while my main army moves at 45. My main army can advance from Mykitnia all the way to Rangoon without any unit moving from a non-road hex to another hex. I'll have the entire Japanese Burma land forces cut off within 5 more days. Nothing they can do about it. They can't march fast enough to catch up to me or even cut me off from supply.

[mogami]

Hi, We are in Aug 1942. I think Ron has had time to set up his defense in China.
If he had units on the flanks to start with. I would not have attempted to surround him.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, We are in Aug 1942. I think Ron has had time to set up his defense in China.
If he had units on the flanks to start with. I would not have attempted to surround him.

Between having to defend Yenen vs over 500, 000 Japanese for months and getting those units redployed across China, there was not much time to slip them into adjacent non base hexes, and with the strange supply model which habitually seems to starve out the bases of Ichang, Kweiyang and Kweilin, sending units off road to be bypassed because of movement issues was not a palatable scenario.

The supply thing is annoying and is yet another thing which the AI can't seem to handle. During the entire six months Wuchow had near ample supply yet Kweilin was starving, despite being a two hexes from each other and being the same distance by road from Kweiyang, another short supply city, a city which should have had more supply than either Wuchow and Kweilin.

Stuff like that weighs heavy on deployment decisions.

[Ron Saueracker]

Yesterday saw Mogami sweep the RAF from the sky over Tavoy....basically lost two whole squadrons in the action. (It would be cool if outnumbered aircraft would use hit and run tactics instead of fighting until the last man simply because their morale is high. Perhaps a few more elements included in the combat routines would have helped reduce the all or nothing bloodletting we see. The high morale Betty and Nell squadrons seem to suffer most from this...they will slaughter themselves often without escorts against CAP heavy targets etc). Today, because of Mogami's overwhelming victory, his bombers were free to paste targets unmolested.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/05/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tavoy , at 28,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 68
Ki-21 Sally x 50
Ki-49 Helen x 59

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 2 damaged

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 28


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 8th Tank Regiment, at 29,37


Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 59


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
86 casualties reported
Guns lost 4
Vehicles lost 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Imperial Guards Division, at 30,37


Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vb x 13
Beaufort I x 11
Beaufort V-IX x 21


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
34 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8390 troops, 290 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 26511 troops, 181 guns, 2 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
390 casualties reported
Guns lost 5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rahaeng

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 29549 troops, 208 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 71956 troops, 287 guns, 288 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
67 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 20678 troops, 164 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 62607 troops, 538 guns, 258 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
14 casualties reported

[Halsey]

I place Army Groups at key roads and junctions. Gives me flxibility to move in 2 or 3 different directions.[;)]

[mogami]

Hi, Interesting argument. "Because I over extended at Yenen I was unable to prepare defense in South China in time"
Everyone knows what a coward I am in China. (both as Japan and Allies)

However Chinese units that are destroyed come back with 1/3 of their TOE. So you can afford some risky play if that kind of thing excites you. Ron knows I won't go west of the RR and that reason alone is why he fought so hard at Yenen. If I was a go for Chungking kind of guy he would not have done it.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Interesting argument. "Because I over extended at Yenen I was unable to prepare defense in South China in time"
Everyone knows what a coward I am in China. (both as Japan and Allies)

However Chinese units that are destroyed come back with 1/3 of their TOE. So you can afford some risky play if that kind of thing excites you. Ron knows I won't go west of the RR and that reason alone is why he fought so hard at Yenen. If I was a go for Chungking kind of guy he would not have done it.

You and everyone else knows China is hard pressed to defend successfully in this game. Whether you cross the RR is your decision, and you crossed it. So much for what you will and won't do but I don't make decisions on what my opponent says he will or will not do. I make them based on what I have, how the situation develops and how game mechanics may affect certain situations. I always defend Yenen if Japan wants it because it is ideal to defend, at least when compared to the Woochow/Kweilin sector, which eventually dies on the vine through lack of supplies...those fat chinese can't get enough C rations.

[Ron Saueracker]

Attacks continue throughout Burma. After taking a pasting the B-17s in SE Asia were deployed to Mandalay in an effort to strike back at Mogamis airpower based at Bangkok which has been causing all the hubbub. Yesterday they hit Bangkok which had no CAP as I hoped but inflicted little damage.

Today Japan shocks at Rahaeng and again is repulsed. Burma is going better than China thankfully, and not at any expense of the defence of India. Loads of troops there to deal with anything should Mogami try (because he says he does not go on adventures, I don't take liberties with the info)



Another US sub sinks...takes one peek at Kaga and gets run over by the Japanese escorts. Poor sod. Tambor hits Haruna farther north with 2duds but lives.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/08/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 63,81

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
DD Kasumi
DD Minegumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Arashio
DD Michishio
DD Oshio
DD Hagikaze

Allied Ships
SS Tambor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 63,87

Japanese Ships
DD Kasumi
DD Minegumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Arashio
DD Michishio
DD Oshio
DD Hagikaze
CV Kaga

Allied Ships
SS S-46, hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hengchow , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 35
Ki-21 Sally x 145
Ki-48 Lily x 63
Ki-46-II Dinah x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48 Lily: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 198

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 23


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported

Runway hits 11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Amboina , at 39,73


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 29


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 27

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rahaeng

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 96473 troops, 580 guns, 288 vehicles

Defending force 38150 troops, 264 guns, 3 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)


Japanese ground losses:
1720 casualties reported
Guns lost 75

Allied ground losses:
1671 casualties reported
Guns lost 60


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8366 troops, 287 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 22336 troops, 173 guns, 2 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
78 casualties reported
Guns lost 5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rahaeng

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 28146 troops, 159 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 90854 troops, 480 guns, 288 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 12739 troops, 151 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 62815 troops, 543 guns, 258 vehicles

[Ron Saueracker]

Submarine Base Pearl Harbor
Date: Aug 8, 1942

1200 Arrive SUB BASE Pearl Harbor. Tarpon to undergo major refit lasting 8 weeks which is to see new weaponry and radar being added when available. Tarpon has been assigned to USS Olapana, a new Otus class AS due to arrive in a few days along with AS Griffin. AS Pelias and SSs Plunger, Cuttlefish, Grouper and Growler also present.
...D.D. Rivers, Lieut, USN.

This was yet another fruitless patrol by Tarpon, despite patrolling her way to Pearl via some of the most heavily used shipping lanes reported by Naval Intel. Not even a single contact since leaving the temporary base at Derby, Australia on May 27th, 1942.

[Ron Saueracker]

Mogami, the problem is that the two flanks take weeks to move and the center (on the road) takes a couple of days. So, you risk losing your flanks when the attacker concentrates on the road and forces your center back. Your flanks can't move back as fast as the attacker can force your center even further back. Now, both your flanks are in the rear. they can't move fast enough to cut off the attacking unit from supply, nor move fast enough to secure the flanks or retreat to relative safety

Yep, this is a major wrench in the land combat model. Because of the scale, units don't project a ZOC into adjacent hexes halting such movement. Really, the designers have a tough situation here to deal with. We'll really need to help them out with some solutions to the various problems we now are faced with due to the scale and the dual occupancy of hexes.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Submarine Base Pearl Harbor
Date: Aug 8, 1942

1200 Arrive SUB BASE Pearl Harbor. Tarpon to undergo major refit lasting 8 weeks which is to see new weaponry and radar being added when available. Tarpon has been assigned to USS Olapana, a new Otus class AS due to arrive in a few days along with AS Griffin. AS Pelias and SSs Plunger, Cuttlefish, Grouper and Growler also present.
...D.D. Rivers, Lieut, USN.

This was yet another fruitless patrol by Tarpon, despite patrolling her way to Pearl via some of the most heavily used shipping lanes reported by Naval Intel. Not even a single contact since leaving the temporary base at Derby, Australia on May 27th, 1942.

Radio Tokyo: "Greetings sailors of US Pirate ship Tarpon. So you are back in Pearl Harbor. Have fun. Live like there is no tomorrow. Do you boys know that being a submarine sailor is a dead end job? Of all the ships they could put you on only the destroyer will see more ships sunk then submarines. Be seeing you soon. We'll name a lagoon or coral reef after you"





(Note: Thanks to the Axis the submarine was the number 1 type ship sunk during WW2
It was the number 2 Allied Navy (not merchant) ship type sunk behind the DD)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Submarine Base Pearl Harbor
Date: Aug 8, 1942

1200 Arrive SUB BASE Pearl Harbor. Tarpon to undergo major refit lasting 8 weeks which is to see new weaponry and radar being added when available. Tarpon has been assigned to USS Olapana, a new Otus class AS due to arrive in a few days along with AS Griffin. AS Pelias and SSs Plunger, Cuttlefish, Grouper and Growler also present.
...D.D. Rivers, Lieut, USN.

This was yet another fruitless patrol by Tarpon, despite patrolling her way to Pearl via some of the most heavily used shipping lanes reported by Naval Intel. Not even a single contact since leaving the temporary base at Derby, Australia on May 27th, 1942.

Radio Tokyo: "Greetings sailors of US Pirate ship Tarpon. So you are back in Pearl Harbor. Have fun. Live like there is no tomorrow. Do you boys know that being a submarine sailor is a dead end job? Of all the ships they could put you on only the destroyer will see more ships sunk then submarines. Be seeing you soon. We'll name a lagoon or coral reef after you"





(Note: Thanks to the Axis the submarine was the number 1 type ship sunk during WW2
It was the number 2 Allied Navy (not merchant) ship type sunk behind the DD)

Maybe a Japanese American will take command and turn their fortunes around, eh?[:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/09/42

This is the farthest Mogami or I have every reached in PBEM! All smells like a new car from here.[:)]

Bangkok is visited by B-17s again but meet a hot CAP this time.

Rahaeng, devoid of CAP after the IJA and IJN fighter sweeps, gets pounded by Bangkok based Nippers.

The daily air attacks by Japan in China and by USAAF in DEI continue...no air opposition.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Bangkok , at 29,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
A6M3 Zero x 31

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 44

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 12 destroyed, 10 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 6 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-46-II Dinah: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-49 Helen: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 17 destroyed, 41 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
170 casualties reported
Guns lost 8

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 14

Aircraft Attacking:
B-17E Fortresses bombing at 17000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 17th Indian Division, at 31,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23
Ki-21 Sally x 35
Ki-49 Helen x 33

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
74 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
Ki-21 Sally bombing at 11000 feet
Ki-49 Helen bombing at 11000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8389 troops, 287 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 22172 troops, 170 guns, 2 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
184 casualties reported
Guns lost 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rahaeng

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 28294 troops, 164 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 91102 troops, 482 guns, 288 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 12663 troops, 149 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 62977 troops, 544 guns, 258 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
90 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

[Ron Saueracker]

Not much to report other than Mogami has finished cleaning up some loose ends in the DEI.

USS Gato has reported having spotted a CV however.

The RAF is experiencing a bit of a pilot crisis after some of the bloody battles in Burma.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/10/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 16th Indian Brigade, at 31,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
Ki-21 Sally x 24
Ki-49 Helen x 25

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
59 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
Sally bombing at 11000 feet
Helen bombing at 11000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 2nd Burma Rifles Brigade, at 31,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 11
Ki-49 Helen x 19

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
Ki-49 Helen bombing at 11000 feet
Ki-21 Sally bombing at 11000 feet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8406 troops, 288 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 22195 troops, 167 guns, 2 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
170 casualties reported
Guns lost 7


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rahaeng

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 28422 troops, 170 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 91601 troops, 494 guns, 287 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Tavoy

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 12555 troops, 140 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 63170 troops, 545 guns, 257 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Sinkep Island

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 8108 troops, 65 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 20 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 73 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Sinkep Island base !!!



Allied ground losses:
34 casualties reported

[Ron Saueracker]

Mogami must be pounding beers with Bear again as it is day 2 with no turn. I sent him one...perhaps he is establishing a life outside of this game?!![X(][:'(]

[mogami]

Hi, Sorry I have a very bad cold. When I don't take the med I can't see the monitor or concentrate to do turns and when I take the med I fall alseep. Been fighting it for about a week. Right after I wake up I'm good for a few hours but then I wear out.
Yesterday was the first day I was unable to send back at least one turn to each game.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Bradley your making an assumption that the Chinese will be on the defensive. Are rule like the one you propose hamstrings the Chinese, possibley even more than the Japanese. I used overland movement to cut off the Japanese in China, if I was stuck on trails I would have lost the country.

If the Japanese clear the rails how will the Chinese interfere with Japanese plans without overland movement? See the problem? Also overland gives the Chinese some ability to surprise the Japanese which is worth a lot imho.

I think land combat is screwed up, but I think both sides can use the system to thier advantage if they are aware of this. Wander over to my AAR with Blackwatch if you want to see the shoe on the other foot.

I agree on both counts.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, If the defender does not have flank and rear security then the speed of movement does not matter. I mean if it takes 3 days to surround or 10 days to surround it is not important.
I think it is pretty funny to use "I can't protect my flanks and still hold a hex" All that means is you don't belong in the hex to begin with.

In China there should be a line of hexes with CHinese units on them. Maybe not a solid line but certainly at least 3 hexes wide on all road approaches. The flank stacks should hold enough to drive a Japanese division back. Chinese should just surround any Japanese advance that does not provide flank security.

If you can't protect a hex you don't belong in the hex.

Well, I have to agree completely with you on this. As far as you take it. I do wish though, Mogami, that sometime you'd spend your energy trying to motivate others in the forum to clamor for reasonable change in the ground-combat system, just for example, and assuming that's possible, which I kinda doubt. But at least an effort by you in this area would be welcomed here.

Except for one or two old farts around here who, I am told, are pushing 70! (poor guys) I'd say I've wargamed as long as, if not longer than, anyone else around here. And I'm pretty good at it, too, if I do say so myself. Certainly I've come to understand how it all works in general, if only from the sheer number of different game systems I've been exposed to along the way, and based on that I've got to say that I have never seen a ground-combat system so hopeless to its work. There's absolutely nothing it doesn't need.

Pop Quiz!

1) What screen actor read that last line?

2) What famous football player appeared briefly in this film?

3) What famous boxer appeared briefly in this film?

Bonus Question: 10 points

Name the man most fundamentally responsible for the conception of this movie's theme.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, We are in Aug 1942. I think Ron has had time to set up his defense in China.
If he had units on the flanks to start with. I would not have attempted to surround him.

Actually, it was about a month ago in game time when Ron was thinking about surrounding you. [:D]