Ground Combat

[Bodhi]

Shouldn't be too difficult to dump that line out to the combatreport.txt file as well as the screen. Wonder if we'll see it in the next patch?

[BraveHome]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

ORIGINAL: BraveHome

I remember asking for this to be included in the combat summary report, to speed things up (one major GC can take 20 minutes, with 100k+ troops bombarding/attacking).

Wonder if they included in 1.5?

No indication of this in the "List of bug fixes and changes in 1.5" thread....

How sad, that they could not make this simple alteration and add years to our productive lives....

[AmiralLaurent]

Chinese Army has one major problem for attacking: the lack fof engineers. They will have a hard time destroying Japanese fortifications.

Once China has all its troop on/near the frontline (count 1-2 months after the start of the game, as a good part of the army starts in the bush away from roads), the Chinese player should try to find any weak spot in Japanese lines (any town held by less than a division) and attack if with a mass of troops. So it will kill some Japanese and destroy Jap fortifications.

Outside this kind of raiding, the Chinese should stay on the defensive. That is not to stay passive but to try to surround attacking Japanese armies. Chinese armies may also besiege Japanese-held cities, just to stop ressources and factories producing, but they should be able to retreat before the Japanese arrive in force or surround them, so it is very tricky.

China should be defensely agressive. That is to strike everywhere where the Japanese forces are weak but not try to hold any unprepared position. If you manage to do this, China will quickly become a bloody mess, bloody for both sides.

In 1943, the Chinese infantry squad sees its firepower increased. If you are still in a good shape at this time, then you may start some offensive operations. It is also the time Japan will start to retire troops from China to send them to other fronts.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

Shouldn't be too difficult to dump that line out to the combatreport.txt file as well as the screen. Wonder if we'll see it in the next patch?

i may be naive, but i would think it to be extremely easy...

top five things i could be doing if i didn't have to watch the combat replays:
5) flossing my teeth...bloody gums are the scourge of geek wargamers
4) read my stack of aging magazines...missing the swimsuit issue to watch combat replays should be a crime
3) tend to the honey-do list...ok, maybe this one isn't so bad
2) finish ripping my CD collection to hard drive...gawd, it'll never get done
1) and number one, read all the posts about how crappy the ground combat system is in WitP (*flurry of fanfare from Paul's Latenight Band*)

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Taking a well-defended hex can be a long-term project. Be sure you bring enough stuff to finish the job. You will want to have engineer regiments to knock down the forts. Assaulting engineers also cause considerable casualties among defenders, as do armored regiments. Bring 2 or 3 of each to a big fight.

Excellent explanation.
Thank you very much

[acmejeff]

ORIGINAL: lordmaul13

Hi.

I was reading the thread on Japanese Strategy in China and it prompted me to post this thread. I'm just curious if anyone has any basic tips or strategies relating to ground combat they would like to share.

lordmaul13

The three most important things (unless you have enough juice to get the 2-to-1 on the first attack): support, supply and preparation points.

The support and supply points I get. The prep points however leave me scratching my head in wonder. Is it really better to wait for the 100 prep points before starting the attack? As the Japanese, I have 8 divisions that just captured Changsha, do I really have to wait for 100 days to build up prep points to attack Wuchow? If so, this means the Japanese have to settle for only one main attack every 3 or 4 months?

[freeboy]

not if you are going to have huge advantage

[Grotius]

set troops to all move together with the all follow command... as opposed to all move command.. if you hit all move they will arrive piecemeal and forced to retreat, then start over...
and again.. cut off the enemies supplies...

Freeboy, are you sure the "all follow" command works? I had heard it was bugged. I've been ordering each LCU individually to move.

[Halsey]

It'll work, if you pick the most fatigued and disrupted one to be the one followed.

Then check it the very next turn to see how far they moved in comparison.
If your lead unit moved faster, reset only its destination, and don't touch the others!

Supposed to be fixed in the upcoming patch. We hope.[;)]

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

It'll work, if you pick the most fatigued and disrupted one to be the one followed.

Then check it the very next turn to see how far they moved in comparison.
If your lead unit moved faster, reset only its destination, and don't touch the others!

Supposed to be fixed in the upcoming patch. We hope.[;)]

Agree, you have to wonder wich unit will be the slowest and choose it as the "leader", so all other units will march 59 miles and then all will cross the hexside in one or two turns. Usually the "leading" unit goes first with part (or not) of the followers, then others follow the next turn.

Checking the unit list may be useful to see if the leader unit is not going too fast for the other.

[BraveHome]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

Shouldn't be too difficult to dump that line out to the combatreport.txt file as well as the screen. Wonder if we'll see it in the next patch?

i may be naive, but i would think it to be extremely easy...

top five things i could be doing if i didn't have to watch the combat replays:
5) flossing my teeth...bloody gums are the scourge of geek wargamers
4) read my stack of aging magazines...missing the swimsuit issue to watch combat replays should be a crime
3) tend to the honey-do list...ok, maybe this one isn't so bad
2) finish ripping my CD collection to hard drive...gawd, it'll never get done
1) and number one, read all the posts about how crappy the ground combat system is in WitP (*flurry of fanfare from Paul's Latenight Band*)

As I'm currently writing this (along with my new Cockney translation of Voina Y Mir) while my 29 units in Changsha attack 30 units, I am totally in touch with #1!!

But as for #3, you're tired, m'boy, get some sleep; though necessary, the HDL is never good.... [:D]

[tsimmonds]

Here is an example of multi-day ground combat that may serve to illustrate some of the points discussed above.

May 23, 1942 -- With considerable help (and sacrifice) from IJN, IJA has taken Trincomalee, and has advanced to Colombo.
Probing attacks by the IJA 4th and 21st Divisions, plus attached armor, engineers and artillery have determined that a
considerable Commonwealth force, consisting of the 18th UK Division, plus elements of the 2nd UK Division and
the 44th and 45th Indian Brigades, is defending.

There is also an IJA Army HQ as well as the two Base Force units you see in the combat animation; these are there to provide
support squads, which will help the combat units recover disruption and fatigue each turn.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/23/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Colombo , at 14,24

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
G4M1 Betty x 26
Ki-27 Nate x 5
Ki-21 Sally x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 9 damaged


Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 22

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
14 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 96415 troops, 660 guns, 152 vehicles

Defending force 18216 troops, 155 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 4


Japanese ground losses:
705 casualties reported
Guns lost 29

Allied ground losses:
646 casualties reported
Guns lost 22

This doesn't really tell you all that you need to know. If you had watched the
entire ground combat animation for the IJ deliberate assault at Colombo, you
would have gleaned the following additional information:

Japanese max assault: 1726 ~ Adjusted assault: 1403
Allied max defense: 160 ~ Adjusted defense: 1165

This tells you that although you have a preponderance of raw force to the tune of
more than 5 to 1, the Allied player posesses defensive advantages that largely
negate your numerical superiority. For example, you are prepped to about 50% for
Colombo; you have to assume that the defender will be at 100%. You have just marched
120 miles, while the allied player has had several days of rest. There are 5 fort levels
at Colombo. On the other hand you can see that 18th UK/A is at 0 strength, and 18th UK/B
is at 7. This is probably the cumulative result of the earlier combat for Trincomalee, plus
your ground support air strike from this turn. His main LCU is hurting, your supply is in
the green, your 1 to 1 was solid, you took his forts down a notch, so you decide to launch
another deliberate assault next turn.

[tsimmonds]

May 24, 1942

Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 95401 troops, 630 guns, 154 vehicles

Defending force 17327 troops, 132 guns, 5 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 3


Japanese ground losses:
1069 casualties reported
Guns lost 24
Vehicles lost 4

Allied ground losses:
828 casualties reported
Guns lost 33

Again, the combat report gives you generic information (1 to 1), but the ground combat animation tells a more complete story:

Japanese max assault: 1534 ~ Adjusted assault: 1583
Allied max defense: 153 ~ Adjusted defense: 1093

Compared with the previous turn, you can see that the relative AV has shifted slightly towards IJ. This is due to: IJ having
knocked down a fort, and to IJ having suffered lighter casualties as a % of his entire force. Also IJ has two engineer
regiments on top of the stack, where the Allied force has 18th/A and 18th/B on top (the base force does not count).
The topmost LCUs will suffer the most in terms of disablements and increases in disruption and fatigue as a
result of ground combat; these are direct reductions in combat strength.

Since things are going our way, we shall conduct a further deliberate assault next turn.

[tsimmonds]

May 25, 1942

Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 94533 troops, 602 guns, 151 vehicles

Defending force 16273 troops, 90 guns, 5 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2


Japanese ground losses:
804 casualties reported
Guns lost 8
Vehicles lost 5

Allied ground losses:
1181 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
Vehicles lost 1

Again, a generic 1-to-1. But, there is one important piece of information here, when compared with the previous day: where
yesterday IJ suffered more casualties, today the allies were hit harder.

And if you had watched the ground combat animation, you would know why:

Japanese max assault: 1410 ~ Adjusted assault: 1168
Allied max defense: 140 ~ Adjusted defense: 589

The combined effects of the losses suffered by 18/A, 18/B, and now 18/C, also at 0, together with another fort level
taken down have pushed the odds to the tipping point. This is a fat 1-to-1 (almost a 2-to-1); add in the fact that significant reinforcements (65th/B Brigade) have arrived, I'd say it is time for the coup de gras, a decisive Shock Attack (actually, a further deliberate attack would probably suffice, but I like shock attacks[:'(]).

[tsimmonds]

May 26, 1942

Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 101780 troops, 694 guns, 143 vehicles

Defending force 14933 troops, 46 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Japanese assault odds: 9 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Colombo base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
1506 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Allied ground losses:
20134 casualties reported
Guns lost 69

The shock attack doubles the attackers' AVs, after doubling the effect of the defenders' fire against them:

Japanese max assault: 3036 ~ Adjusted assault: 2929
Allied max defense: 110 ~ Adjusted defense: 304

Here are the situations of some of the IJ LCUs following the shock attack (and also following one turn
of recovering from its effects in a supply-rich environment)

5th IJA Eng Rgt (top combat LCU in the stack)
TOE: (64/82) experience/morale: (73/22) disruption/fatigue (28/60)
As the top combat unit in the stack, this unit bore the brunt of disablements
as a result of enemy defensive fire;

27th IJA Eng Rgt (second from the top)
TOE: (78/98) experience/morale: (67/59) disruption/fatigue (27/54)

21st Division (third from the top)
TOE: (79/99) experience/morale: (99/60) disruption/fatigue (81/48)
As the topmost division in the stack, this unit did most of the heavy fighting.
They did not get to 99 experience just in this battle, they are veterans of Singapore and Trincomalee

4th Division/C (bottom unit in the stack)
TOE: (**/**) experience/morale: (98/51) disruption/fatigue (20/37)
TOE is meaningless as this unit was hit by the expanding LCU bug.
As the bottom LCU in the stack, this unit contributed fully to combat, but came off rather lightly in
disruption and fatigue. Stacking order matters.

[BraveHome]

Excellent illustrations of the proper way to assault!

Also, a validation of our desire to see the AAV's in the summary screen, not just the animation text at end of combat. Too vital to miss!

[JReb]

What about the weather? I usually don't attack or even march in burma, if heavy precip is falling. Does weather add to fatifue and disruption?

[tsimmonds]

I have not noticed that weather has any effect whatsoever on LCUs, ground movement, or ground combat.

[Grotius]

Thanks for this, Irrelevant! Very helpful.

One slightly off-topic question: did 1.5 change anything relating to withdrawal from a contested hex? If the two sides are slogging it out, neither one forcing the other to retreat, can one side withdraw if the other side continues to attack or bombard? Or does any attack/bombardment still "cancel" the withdrawing unit's orders?

[qgaliana]

Very limited experiments with this, but my withdrawing units so far have continued marching even under fire (v1.5). At least under bombardments - didn't check to see if the march count reset under other attacks but I don't think they did.