Insurrectionist's surrender

[Ektor]

Hello,

I was playing Turkey, and have a 'forced' surrender via the insurrectionist during a war against Austria.
How does it works? what are the rules of these surrenders?

My nation was well, my people had a morale higher than 200, I have lost 2 battles (but minor loses, made higher casualties to the Austrian that I took, have lost only because of low morale) in the Austria country.
No ennemy army were in my nation, haven't lost any land.

So how can you explain that I had to suffer a surrender, after 2 turn of war against only 1 nation, with only 2 battle lost, nothing else?

[ian77]

Who was forced to surrender, you or Austria?

[Ektor]

I (turkey) was forced to surrender because of 'inserructionist'
my people had a morale higher than 200
no ennemy troups on my lands
2 turns of war
only one ennemy nation
just lost 2 battles which were near won (have made more casualties to ennemy that I have taken)

hard to accept a forced surrender in these conditions, and this is not the first time it happens to me

on another game, again with turkey, I was at war with britain, sweden, and austria.
I did never seen a britain or sweden troop. But suddenly the 'insurrectionists' forced me to surrender to Britain, and so I have lost 2 lands to Britain, and so have lost my empire status, and so morale of neg999, and so game was lost

again a forced surrender without any logic [:(]

I do think that Turkey would surrender to a noislamist nation so easely

[ian77]

Do you have a save from the turn before your surrender?

[Ektor]

I check

[ian77]

I have sent you a PM with my email address.

Ian

[Ralegh]

This is only triggered by national morale going under -750. Your NML on the events report is a turn out of date, though: it doesn't show the morale losses due to battles in immediately preceding month.

A single battle with more than 100,000 men on both sides can cause a huge swing, though - the morale impact is 6x what it would be otherwise - and even if you lose it closely, it is still a loss.

Was one of your battles in the immediately preceding turn that large?

[Ektor]

Have the savegame, and here are 2 clues :
1) it's a huge battle (200k against 200k)
2) I called to reinforce an army with in it the leader of my nation

If i do not call the army with the sultan, I do not surrender (the fight without reinf is 200k austrian against 170k turkey if I remember)

So I do think that lose a huge battle with the leader of the nation is a major loss, even if it's the first lost, in ennemy land, with a tie battle...

It's a real problem for the turkey... how can we win against a pack of 200k army with a low morale and no 2nd chance? it's near impossible.

[Ektor]

no pm actually, maybe a delay, will check later

[Hard Sarge]

go to the diplo screen, click on veiw countrys, on your country and it will show you your morale

click on that button and it will bring up a detail view of your morale

[Hard Sarge]

when you say your morale was 200, was that before or after you surrender ?

you get 500 points or so when you surrender

[Ektor]

after surrender I have 191 morale or near

[ian77]

You need to see what is was prior to surrender.

Ian

[Ektor]

ok have checked via the details of the diplo screen, and after the battle the nation is at neg 999, so turkey have lost 1200 morale in one battle, that's hurt...

*add :
defeat in a battle : -1212

[Hard Sarge]

Roger that, it was a big battle, and both sides had over 100,000 so it was a uber battle, and points lost were like 6x normal

wow a -1200 point is HARD to take

but think that shows what happened and why

another case of how to lose a war in a afternoon

[Ralegh]

IMHO Turkey is incredibly hard to play in a short game (where you can't up their morale significantly). You have to manage morale very very carefully. Note that you gain 75 morale for taking an enemy city, while costing him 150! I have successfully used the Turks to attack like 6 cities at once (remember, you don't need a corps or army in a city-sacking group, and feudals/irregs are just as good as regulars at seiging in COG), in addition to having a combat army to fence with the baddies. Spread the horde out! You need to plan to recoup morale if you want to wear down an enemies combat forces - and this applies to people attacking the British navy too! At least you have an enormous supply of troops - if you want them.

I believe that the higher your feudal level, the less morale you should lose for battle losses - your people don't care so much. That would breathe some life back into the Turkish hordes - and counteract the huge economic benefits of reduced feudal levels. This is amoung a number of alterations to game dynamics that the designer is mulling over - but by no means a certainty.

[ericbabe]

It is! I really think the level of Feudalism should determine many factors dealing with national morale changes.