Open Letter to Matrix Games Re: WitP

[Big B]

When big B speaks, people listen ([:D][:D] Ya right [:D][:D])

It occuered to me what Matrix should do for WitP to make Everyone happy...

There are features that should be added to WitP to improve the game - such as a a more detailed treatment of land warfare and naval warfare.

However, we have already bought the game and it makes no economic sense to devote major resources and time to changing the product for NO economic gain - in fact - I am amazed that they keep comming out with patches (but we all thank you [&o]).

Why dosen't Matrix poll the forum members to see what features are MOST wanted, then make a WitP EXPANSION (like other companys do, and an expansion that requires ownership of WitP) and charge us $$ for it. Everybody wins - Matrix gets monetary compensation for their time spent - and we devoted customers get the features we want to see...

How about it?

B

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Big B

When big B speaks, people listen ([:D][:D] Ya right [:D][:D])

It occuered to me what Matrix should do for WitP to make Everyone happy...

There are features that should be added to WitP to improve the game - such as a a more detailed treatment of land warfare and naval warfare.

However, we have already bought the game and it makes no economic sense to devote major resources and time to changing the product for NO economic game - in fact - I am amazed that they keep comming out with patches (but we all thank you [&o]).

Why dosen't Matrix poll the forum members to see what features are MOST wanted, then make a WitP EXPANSION (like other companys do, and an expansion that requires ownership of WitP) and charge us $$ for it. Everybody wins - Matrix gets monetary compensation for their time spent - and we devoted customers get the features we want to see...

How about it?

B

I'M for it, but I already posted that I would be willing to pay up to $200 for a WitP II without even asking what improvements they included. [:D]I think I am feeling guilty because WitP is such a bargain [8|]

Since I have not bought a single game since WitP came out, I calculate that I have saved over $200 already.

[Mike Scholl]

Not sure this would help. So many of the "answers" to requests for problem "fixes" have boiled down to "It's hard-coded" or "the code won't allow it" that I don't think the original designers are the people who can get such a job done. I think we need some fresh programming ideas, which would call for a fresh programming team. I wonder if there is still any possibility of 2by3 making the game code available to someone else. I remember it being discussed.

[Mynok]

I would love to see the code opened once it has passed its marketable time.

[aletoledo]

I like the idea of a WitP2, as suggested previous, that was only PBEM. I'd easily pay $100 for that.

[michaelm75au]

With any program project, you start off with an overall design.
You break it down into components and program it as so.
This becomes your basic coded design.
As new things come up, you add/change the program but it is often difficult or impossible to add new stuff that does not fit into the overall design.
If you do, you more often then not break something else. Without even realising it.

As a programmer, I have had a few cases where my program design satisfied the original requirements. Then along comes some new who decides they need these items which weren't in the original specifications added.
The decision comes down to try to modify the existing program, or basically scrape most has been done and re-design. The redesign always takes time, but often you have to compromise by tacking new bits onto the existing program.

Granted, there are a few things in WITP that I would have designed differently to add flexibilty to coding, but I don't think you can say that "I don't think the original designers are the people who can get such a job done."

My opinion anyway.
Michael

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Not sure this would help. So many of the "answers" to requests for problem "fixes" have boiled down to "It's hard-coded" or "the code won't allow it" that I don't think the original designers are the people who can get such a job done. I think we need some fresh programming ideas, which would call for a fresh programming team. I wonder if there is still any possibility of 2by3 making the game code available to someone else. I remember it being discussed.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

With any program project, you start off with an overall design.
You break it down into components and program it as so.
This becomes your basic coded design.
As new things come up, you add/change the program but it is often difficult or impossible to add new stuff that does not fit into the overall design.
If you do, you more often then not break something else. Without even realising it.

As a programmer, I have had a few cases where my program design satisfied the original requirements. Then along comes some new who decides they need these items which weren't in the original specifications added.
The decision comes down to try to modify the existing program, or basically scrape most has been done and re-design. The redesign always takes time, but often you have to compromise by tacking new bits onto the existing program.

Granted, there are a few things in WITP that I would have designed differently to add flexibilty to coding, but I don't think you can say that "I don't think the original designers are the people who can get such a job done."

My opinion anyway.
Michael

And I respect it.. I'm not a programmer, but I have read a lot of "explanations" in this forum and there seems to be a concensus that 2by3 tried to re-use a lot of code from previous efforts, and had to make compromises to squash it in. Also there have been a number of posts from people who are programmers and question many of the decisions 2by3 made. I'm just going by my own impression of the Production System---anybody else would have put it in spreadsheet form for the ease of the users. They put it all over the map, almost as if they wanted to punish the players who had requested a production system. And it really shouldn't have been that hard to program a "ramp up" and "ramp down" into aircraft production instead of the "steady state" production in the game. There are just a lot of reasons to hope that a fresh group of eyes could be turned on the situation.

[Crimguy]

I'm kinda of the opinion that, regardless of how much fun we're all having in WitP, and how many features we may like (which are numerous), and how many we'd like to see (equally numerous), Matrix should, if they ever re-visit the Pacific, scrap the entire engine, take a fresh look at the system, and start fresh, possibly reusing only the underlying unit data.

[Tankerace]

I agree with that, but not because I don't like WitP. But if I am going to shell out another 80, I don't want the same old stuff, I want something new.

[wworld7]

I agree with that, but not because I don't like WitP. But if I am going to shell out another 80, I don't want the same old stuff, I want something new.

AGREED!!!

Flipper

[jvgfanatic]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
And I respect it.. I'm not a programmer, but I have read a lot of "explanations" in this forum and there seems to be a concensus that 2by3 tried to re-use a lot of code from previous efforts, and had to make compromises to squash it in. Also there have been a number of posts from people who are programmers and question many of the decisions 2by3 made. I'm just going by my own impression of the Production System---anybody else would have put it in spreadsheet form for the ease of the users. They put it all over the map, almost as if they wanted to punish the players who had requested a production system. And it really shouldn't have been that hard to program a "ramp up" and "ramp down" into aircraft production instead of the "steady state" production in the game. There are just a lot of reasons to hope that a fresh group of eyes could be turned on the situation.

As a former User Interface designer (not just a hobby, I made a career out of it) and programmer I have to agree here as well. So many of these games are built with mountains of data behind them and absolutely no (or very little) regard for data management from the user's perspective. At the very least I'd expect the ability to export delimited data from the game for use in a spreadsheet for proper data analysis.

As it is I have to pretend that I'm back in the 40's (immersive, ain't it) and track by hand (either with paper and pencil or excel) the data I find important.

One game that came out not too long ago that actually makes an attempt at very good UI, not only from a data visualization standpoint but also an overall friendliness is Hearts of Iron 2. The game does have it's flaws but the number of charts and tables in that game is fantastic. If you want a table of information chances are it's in the game and all located in one "paged" screen.

I haven't spent enough time with HOI2 to know how effective that UI is but first impressions are very good.

My primary focus in UI design for a number of years was in the design of software for folks with disabilities. Let me tell you that designing UIs for that audience was both fun and very, very tough.

As to the "new" title being 80-100, Matrix has to be careful not to price themselves out of just that many more sales. I have a family to support and there is no way I could justify spending that kind of money unless I sacrificed something else. Not that I wouldn't be willing to do that... Still, if the game is that expensive there is a responsibility on the part of the designers to build a decent UI.

The UI in this game is one of it's weaker points. Tiny round buttons for some things that act as radio buttons, but then those same tiny round buttons act as real buttons...then sometimes there aren't buttons, the text is clickable. There is little consistency. For as expensive a game as WitP already is I expected much more out of the UI. I'm not really complaining here because I like the game...if I didn't I wouldn't bother with the criticism.

[michaelm75au]

True.
I am not denying the basis for comments.

One of things I would have done would have to export some of these "hardcoded" values to importable files (bit like Waw, CIV3, MOO3). [The contents which could be edited, would have then been stored in the save to stop hacking of variables.] This also would have made it a bit easier to tune the game.

Their decision (for better or worse) was to base WITP on the UV engine, and then append the new stuff (like production) to it.

And if a new WITP was to come out, I would like it to be designed from the ground up as a new game not just a rehash. I get tied of playing a MkI game and then 8 months later a "new" MkII game is released which is still the MkI game with bells and whistles. [There are exceptions of course, but after awhile you become a skeptic[;)].]

I am not use to writing essays. I tend to write in as few sentences as possible ... maybe not as few as MikeW though.[:D]

michael

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: michaelm

With any program project, you start off with an overall design.
You break it down into components and program it as so.
This becomes your basic coded design.
As new things come up, you add/change the program but it is often difficult or impossible to add new stuff that does not fit into the overall design.
If you do, you more often then not break something else. Without even realising it.

As a programmer, I have had a few cases where my program design satisfied the original requirements. Then along comes some new who decides they need these items which weren't in the original specifications added.
The decision comes down to try to modify the existing program, or basically scrape most has been done and re-design. The redesign always takes time, but often you have to compromise by tacking new bits onto the existing program.

Granted, there are a few things in WITP that I would have designed differently to add flexibilty to coding, but I don't think you can say that "I don't think the original designers are the people who can get such a job done."

My opinion anyway.
Michael

And I respect it.. I'm not a programmer, but I have read a lot of "explanations" in this forum and there seems to be a concensus that 2by3 tried to re-use a lot of code from previous efforts, and had to make compromises to squash it in. Also there have been a number of posts from people who are programmers and question many of the decisions 2by3 made. I'm just going by my own impression of the Production System---anybody else would have put it in spreadsheet form for the ease of the users. They put it all over the map, almost as if they wanted to punish the players who had requested a production system. And it really shouldn't have been that hard to program a "ramp up" and "ramp down" into aircraft production instead of the "steady state" production in the game. There are just a lot of reasons to hope that a fresh group of eyes could be turned on the situation.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

I agree with that, but not because I don't like WitP. But if I am going to shell out another 80, I don't want the same old stuff, I want something new.

AGREED!!!

Flipper

Yes that would be better - but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
We have WitP, I just thought it would be more cost effective for Matrix to get sales dollars for some tinkering, rather than launch a major project starting fresh - and let's face it, a game like WitP has (industry wise) a very small market.

And no matter how much we'd rather spend $80 - $100 for something new...we'd all be out there buying the "expansion".

B

[Halsey]

[/quote]

Yes that would be better - but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

B

[/quote]

Well, that depends on what kinda bush you're talkin about.[;)]

[von Beanie]

Personally, I think Matrix needs to find a way to introduce the advanced game to beginners. A future edition needs to have a simplified version of the game, perhaps using task forces, on Andrew Brown's colorful maps. They could add some supply task forces to teach the principles of base supply, and simplify the air war.

Then players could move on to the intermediate and advanced versions of the game, and our hobby expands while Matrixgames makes more money for their efforts.

Money is made based on numbers, and this hobby needs to attract new players. I can't imagine trying to encourage a newbie to attempt WITP as it currently stands, even though I know it is a great game to play.

I would pay plenty of money for a new version that includes an introductory game, and perhaps additional advanced options for the grognards. Producing a new introductory game might even be the impetus they need to renovate or reinvent the UI as some others have suggested.

[ChezDaJez]

Personally, I think Matrix needs to find a way to introduce the advanced game to beginners. A future edition needs to have a simplified version of the game, perhaps using task forces, on Andrew Brown's colorful maps. They could add some supply task forces to teach the principles of base supply, and simplify the air war.

That's what the smaller scenarios are for. You don't have to worry about production in them nor is supply as big an issue as in the full campaigns. The Coral Sea scenario is a good starter scenario as it is similar to UV and many players that have purchased this game also have UV.

Chez

[Big B]

Oh come on guys!

Gouge us for some $buc$ and make an expansion![:D]

B

[Captain Cruft]

I don't think there's any economic mileage in the "expansion" idea. Not enough punters ... Also, 2by3 have "had enough" of this engine, to paraphrase from the Wargamer interview and other places.

Patches will continue to come, just not at a fast rate. Mike Wood only has so much time and has, as I understand it, now been primarily directed on to the new WiR-type game (from a posting on the WiR forum).

The best hope for a re-implementation is from the various third-parties who are rumoured to be doing stuff.

[Tankerace]

Use the money for a WitP expansion to buy WPO [:D] (I had too)

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Use the money for a WitP expansion to buy WPO [:D] (I had too)

When they finally get around to release it, you mean...