Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:23 am**

Not sure about the "OK kiddies..." part of page 12.
The rest of the tutorials have been descriptive and lecturing and putting in a rhetorical question seems to break the flow of the lesson.
Saying "OK Field Marshals..." would be just as bad.
Just my two cents - I'm no expert in the field of documentation.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:50 am**

Maybe it's possible, to

1. have the maximum ranges of supply sub-paths depicted on the abstract supply graphics?

2. highlighten the described units and their supply paths on the tutorial pictures with a painting program? Sometimes they are hard to see, esp. on those pictures with higher unit density.

3. have a short additional list or graphic on page 13, which shows systematically what can fuction as primary, secondary, tertiary supply source?

Regards

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:58 am**

ORIGINAL: wosung
Maybe it's possible, to

1. have the maximum ranges of supply sub-paths depicted on the abstract supply graphics?

2. highlighten the described units and their supply paths on the tutorial pictures with a painting program? Sometimes they are hard to see, esp. on those pictures with higher unit density.

3. have a short additional list or graphic on page 13, which shows systematically what can fuction as primary, secondary, tertiary supply source?

Regards

1 - that information is in the legend of the abstract.

2 - might be hard to do without it looking crude; but I'll think about it because you're right that the units can be hard to find.

3 - yes; I'll rework the text to include that information.

Thanks.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:41 am**

ORIGINAL: wosung
2. highlighten the described units and their supply paths on the tutorial pictures with a painting program? Sometimes they are hard to see, esp. on those pictures with higher unit density.

You must write about page 12 of the tutorial. While it is true that page 12 is high density with counters, there are 2 things to remember when seeing it.
First thing is that there were 11 pages before that teached the reader what the HQ looked like, what the railways looked like, what the supply paths were like, with simpler images, so the reader should be well informed when arriving here.
Second thing is that what is depicted in page 12 is what the WiF FE player sees 90% of the time when looking at the map, that is lots of counters, and sometime the HQ are not even the top most unit, so the reader would better accustomize himself with this view otherwise he might be lost quite fast playing the game.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:23 am**

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

2nd and last in series. As for all the pages of this tutorial, the screenshots and abstracts are by Patrice.

Is it possible to show how the supply situation will look like during rain for this tutorial? It will be an interesting one indeed.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:17 pm**

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Second and last in series.

I assume Option 12 Limited Access Across Straits is inactive for this screenshot? Or else wouldn't the units in Sicily be OOS as well? Since Sicily is in the Italian Coast sea area and separated from It by a straight, it will be subject the same as Sardinia with Lim OS Supply,.

I know these are tutorials, and you are trying to limit the amount of new concepts, but as a relatively inexperianced WIFer, I know just enough to strangle myself. And supply (and oil) concepts are very hard to keep up with. I am asking for for my own clarification, than to change the write-up.

Thanks for the all the hard work

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:32 pm**

ORIGINAL: flailen
I assume Option 12 Limited Access Across Straits is inactive for this screenshot? Or else wouldn't the units in Sicily be OOS as well? Since Sicily is in the Italian Coast sea area and separated from It by a straight, it will be subject the same as Sardinia with Lim OS Supply,.

But Sicily is part of Italian Home Country, and Sicily has a city, Palermo, where the MIL is. Palermo is a Primary Supply source for Italian & German units. So German & Italian Units in Sicily in range from Palermo are in supply.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:40 pm**

Ahh yes. Exception:Sicily is part of the Italian home nation for all purposes. As I said, certain aspects of this game are hard to keep straight, I think I'll add Entities to that list, and lending, ... oh and naval transport.

Thanks for the clarification

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:51 pm**

1. have the maximum ranges of supply sub-paths depicted on the abstract supply graphics?

2. highlighten the described units and their supply paths on the tutorial pictures with a painting program? Sometimes they are hard to see, esp. on those pictures with higher unit density.

3. have a short additional list or graphic on page 13, which shows systematically what can fuction as primary, secondary, tertiary supply source?

Regards

Thats would be great. And IMHO it would be even better if the highlighted hexes showed what was rail and what was basic supply path (e.g. red borders round rail supplypath hexes and green around basic supplypath hexes).
 
/Magnus

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:55 pm**

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
Is it possible to show how the supply situation will look like during rain for this tutorial? It will be an interesting one indeed.

It would be too hard.
Actually, when we did screenshots in different weathers, I did the screenshot with units under fair weather, and Steve did the screenshot without units under rain (or else) weather, because Steve has some mean to make the weather he wants happen on the map. I do not have this mean so I would have to setup a game, and wait for a rainy weather to happen to take my screenshot, which are not yet possible.
So, with my screenshot with units under fair weather, I had to put all the units on a new layer, paste Steve screenshot under this layer so that it looked like the units are on Steve's map. When there are only a dozen or so units this is possible even if long, but here it is not there are too many units. I spent a full day assembling this picture, this is very time consuming.

Now, its fairly easy to imagine what happens under rain weather.

Von Bock (the German 7(3)3 white print HQ north of the Pripet Marshes near the center of the screen) would still be in supply, by :
- Tracing 1 hex BASIC up to the Rudel Stuka (the one with the 5 circled in red)
- then tracing RAIL through the Railgun (the 6-1 with the 6 in a grey circle)
- tracing RAIL through the SS MTN DIV
- tracing RAIL through the 6-3 INF
- tracing RAIL through the word "Dvina"
- tracing RAIL to the south to Guderian HQ-A (the black print 6(4)5 HQ in the forest)
- then he would trace 1 hex BASIC to the west to the other railway, because his railway is blocked by Zoya's unopposed ZoC,
- from there he can trace RAIL uninterrupted up to Germany.

Guderian is in supply by the same uninterrupted railway, Mannerheim too.

Those in supply HQ would put nearly all the German Army in supply, except a few units too far away from them, like the 5-4 red circled JagdPanther Tank Destroyer unit and the dreaded 1st SS Panzer DIV on the other side of the river, a few units southwest from Zoya. Time would be ideal for Sturmoviks to Ground Strike the most advanced Panzer units, crush them. The 7-4 MTN in the north could also advance up to Kaunas (but it is itself OOS, so it would disrupt if it moved), but it would not be sufficient to cut supply.

The Russians would have all their first lines in Ukraine out of supply too, as Zhukov (8(5)4) is 4 hexes from them.

While the Germans on this shot look like in a desperate situation, theyr would still be a tough nut to crack if they know how to give some ground at the right moment, to shorten their line and block the units who have outflanked them. Sure, they should not wait too much to withdraw here.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:36 pm**

Here is a coarse example of how what it could look like when highlighting the supplypath hexes. (red for rail, green for the rest).
 
Hmm.... hopefully ill manage to attach the image.
 

 
 
 
/Magnus 

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:40 pm**

Hmm.... hopefully ill manage to attach the image.

 
Well... obviously i didn´t. [:D]
 
How do I do that?
 
 
 
/Magnus

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:06 pm**

ORIGINAL: Froonp
It would be too hard.
Actually, when we did screenshots in different weathers, I did the screenshot with units under fair weather, and Steve did the screenshot without units under rain (or else) weather, because Steve has some mean to make the weather he wants happen on the map. I do not have this mean so I would have to setup a game, and wait for a rainy weather to happen to take my screenshot, which are not yet possible.
So, with my screenshot with units under fair weather, I had to put all the units on a new layer, paste Steve screenshot under this layer so that it looked like the units are on Steve's map. When there are only a dozen or so units this is possible even if long, but here it is not there are too many units. I spent a full day assembling this picture, this is very time consuming.

Now, its fairly easy to imagine what happens under rain weather.

Von Bock (the German 7(3)3 white print HQ north of the Pripet Marshes near the center of the screen) would still be in supply, by :
- Tracing 1 hex BASIC up to the Rudel Stuka (the one with the 5 circled in red)
- then tracing RAIL through the Railgun (the 6-1 with the 6 in a grey circle)
- tracing RAIL through the SS MTN DIV
- tracing RAIL through the 6-3 INF
- tracing RAIL through the word "Dvina"
- tracing RAIL to the south to Guderian HQ-A (the black print 6(4)5 HQ in the forest)
- then he would trace 1 hex BASIC to the west to the other railway, because his railway is blocked by Zoya's unopposed ZoC,
- from there he can trace RAIL uninterrupted up to Germany.

Guderian is in supply by the same uninterrupted railway, Mannerheim too.

Those in supply HQ would put nearly all the German Army in supply, except a few units too far away from them, like the 5-4 red circled JagdPanther Tank Destroyer unit and the dreaded 1st SS Panzer DIV on the other side of the river, a few units southwest from Zoya. Time would be ideal for Sturmoviks to Ground Strike the most advanced Panzer units, crush them. The 7-4 MTN in the north could also advance up to Kaunas (but it is itself OOS, so it would disrupt if it moved), but it would not be sufficient to cut supply.

The Russians would have all their first lines in Ukraine out of supply too, as Zhukov (8(5)4) is 4 hexes from them.

While the Germans on this shot look like in a desperate situation, theyr would still be a tough nut to crack if they know how to give some ground at the right moment, to shorten their line and block the units who have outflanked them. Sure, they should not wait too much to withdraw here.

A very good explanation, thank you. [:)]

I wonder about the Russia 7-4 MTN. Couldn't this unit capture Kaunas by going SW+SE. Then the 6-4 MTN could capture Riga and beyond by going W+SW. The Russian unit NE of the 6-4 MTN could maybe capture the hex NE of Riga and also Parnu. With all these moves I guess it should be possible to have a rail line from Kaunas, Riga etc. back to Russia. Won't the minor country capitals then be able to supply the Russian units even in rain? Or have I forgotten something?

Will the Russian 7-4 MTN unit become disorganized (because it's OOS at the beginning of it's turn) after it's move even though it will be in supply at the end of its turn? So what's worst for the 7-4 MTN, OOS and organized or disorganized and in supply? Will disorganized in supply only have 1 or 3 strength points or will they have normal strength and the attacker's only benefit is a +1 die modifier?

Is the tutorial 12 screenshot taken from the 1944 scenario? I think the front lines look very much like the Summer of 1944 front lines.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:17 pm**

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
I wonder about the Russia 7-4 MTN. Couldn't this unit capture Kaunas by going SW+SE. Then the 6-4 MTN could capture Riga and beyond by going W+SW. The Russian unit NE of the 6-4 MTN could maybe capture the hex NE of Riga and also Parnu. With all these moves I guess it should be possible to have a rail line from Kaunas, Riga etc. back to Russia. Won't the minor country capitals then be able to supply the Russian units even in rain? Or have I forgotten something?

You have forgotten that supply sources must have not be enemy held during the turn to be supply sources. So Riga, Kaunas, etc, would be supply sources on next turn. During this turn, the Russians that would advance into them would disrupt (because they are OOS themselves), and would be destroyed easily.

Will the Russian 7-4 MTN unit become disorganized (because it's OOS at the beginning of it's turn) after it's move even though it will be in supply at the end of its turn?

Yes.

So what's worst for the 7-4 MTN, OOS and organized or disorganized and in supply? Will disorganized in supply only have 1 or 3 strength points or will they have normal strength and the attacker's only benefit is a +1 die modifier?

Disorganized and in supply, it still have 7 combat points, and give a bonus to the attacker. But here, it would be disorganized and oos, so only have 3 Combat points.

Is the tutorial 12 screenshot taken from the 1944 scenario? I think the front lines look very much like the Summer of 1944 front lines.

Yes, with modifications to the north, to make the encirclement more dramatic. Normaly, all the area west and north of the Finnish Ski DIV is German at start of the 1944 scenario. The oob on the other hand is total fantasy from me. It is particulary poor on planes, as usually a 1944 map is more plane cluttered than here.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:55 pm**

It is particulary poor on planes, as usually a 1944 map is more plane cluttered than here.

It's the digitization of all those teetering, towering piles of counters that I am looking forward to so much in Mwif!

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:57 pm**

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

Hmm.... hopefully ill manage to attach the image.

Well... obviously i didn´t. [:D]

How do I do that?

/Magnus

To include pictures with a post you need for them to be in JPG format and under 200 kb in size. There's another acceptable format (I forget what) but it is not BMP.

At the bottom of the post (not a quick post, but a Reply to a previous post), there are two steps: (1) check the box Embed picture and (2) click on "Click here to upload" and follow the instructions.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:35 pm**

Ok. Trying again.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:09 pm**

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus
Ok. Trying again.

Looks great and helps people understand how supply is traced.

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:08 pm**

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus
Ok. Trying again.

Very nice.

Could you give me a close up of just a sinlge hex with the outline?

The real downside to this is that I do not want to redo all the screen shots for the supply tutorial. (Nor does Patrice I am sure).

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:31 pm**

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The real downside to this is that I do not want to redo all the screen shots for the supply tutorial. (Nor does Patrice I am sure).

Yes, you bet.

What worries me most with this, is that by showing that you are showing one supply path for von Bock, and the problem is that there are some others supply paths for von Bock that you don't show. Showing them all would be a mess.

So, showing this supply path only you put the emphasis on this one and give the false impression that this is THE supply path of von Bock, and that for example cutting it would cut supply, which is wrong.

I prefer the reader to be given explanations through the text & abstracts, and then to understand by himself by looking at the map what supply paths are possible, because a whole lot are.

Matrix Games Forums

Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9

RE: Supply Tutorial - #9