Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:07 pm**

Apparently not...[8|]

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:23 pm**

My point was that large formations of ships can't "sneak" out.

Do you know something about the weather in the Denmark Strait? Do you knwo that it's up to 24h/day in total darkness in winter? How much shall the British have permanently at sea between both Scotland - Iceland and Iceland - Greenland?
Take 4 fast BBs. They may get detected by patrolling cruisers (which isn't sure in a snowstorm in winter), but it will not be able to hinder their breakthrough. Steaming full speed will make the British unable to catch this TF. They will know that they are in the Atlantic now, but that's all!

@Convois
Do you think that the inflicted damage within this first 6 month (which will be way shorter as there's no more opposition when one ship after the other is going to the botton through raiders) is enough to win the war? I don't think so, so the ships must be able to attack convois as well.

Initially (historically) in WW2, the British did not escort convoys with battleships. They only did that when the Germans had conducted raids with Scharnhorst/Gneisenau. If the Germans have a large battlefleet "in being", the British will be reluctant to detach these heavy units from the new Grand Fleet, unless it is clear that the Germans are slipping BB/BC's out into the Atlantic.
But even if they have an "R" class BB escorting a convoy, it can only chase a single raider at a time. If you have (as the raider) a single BC, your dastardly plans may be foiled. If you had 2 or 3 cruisers, one cruiser could slip around the flanks of the battle area and get at the fleeing convoy.

How can you compare the situation in WW2 with the HKD scenario? Germany never had more than 2-3 BBs ready for service...
And yes, 2 of the 3 CAs might attack the convoi, if there's just a single BB escorting. This is most unlikely when a dozen raiders are spread in the Atlantic. If Germany has no BB fleet, they can easily detach 2 BBs and 2 CAs per convoi - especially if it's needed. So what will your 3 CAs do even against "just" two BBs? Two will fight against the BBs while one is attacking the dissolving convoi? So the one may sink up to 10 AKs (if only that much) while the other two CAs are supposably sunk or that heavy damaged that they don't manage to break through back home.

No good plan...

Nothing. The goal is to sink the commerce, remember? You have already stated from the outset that fleet v. fleet slugging was not the goal of the German high command...
Your cruisers should attempt to outmaneuver the enemy, or go find less well defended targets.

And where? There are already Panzerschiffe planned to attack the single ships or small convois at the outskirts of the war zone, but how long will not sufficiantly protected convois be found when there's extensive commerce raiding?
There's sufficiant firepower and protection needed to even just try to outmaneuver a protected convoi, because how much hits can a CA take without loosing its full combat efficiency?

@38cm shells
Propably right, I don't have the data how long it takes to send new shells and propellant to the guns - but what do you think: How much 38cm HE shells are needed for an averege freighter? [;)]

One of the more (in)famous debates is: You can choose between 4 Sherman tanks, and a 1 Panther. What do you bring?

Was the Sherman 4 times cheaper than a Panther if you assume same production techniques, no aerial bombardement, no ressource shortages... - or do you just forget that the US industry simply was way more productive than the German one?
Not really a better example, especially as the firepower of a Cruiser really is smaller by far than the firepower of a BB.

Answer: not much, unless surprise was acheived. A CA is armored against 5inch shell fire. (Granted, the "Pocket Battleships" didnt have much armor to speak of...) The only danger is the torps.

The Admiral Graf Spee was also armoured against CA shells...
"Armoured against" doesn't mean "immune", it just means it's unlikly that it gets sunk after suffering a usual amount of hits of that size. Nevertheless, the shells do damage amd may well reduce the battle readiness.

I think that your going to find, especially with the WiTP model, that LBA is going to kill your fleet...

If I manage to simulate the bad weather north of Iceland, there won't be much attacks in winter... In total darkness and a blizzard, its not that easy bombing a ship [:D]

But they won't be as efficient as cruisers, IMO.

Which loose every efficiancy as soon as the enemy forms protected convois. A human player won't take long to do this...

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:24 pm**

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Apparently not...[8|]

constructive post, really!
...

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:50 pm**

Weichselwerft (found on Polish website - might help you acces to another language

):
Placed inland, a riverrine shipyard - produced barges and hulls for submarines.
It was captured Polish shipyard, not in German hands during start of your scenario. It was placed in Płock (Plock) - more less halfway between Toruń (Thorn) and Warszawa (Warschau).

Kaiserliche Werft, Danzig - had 3 slips, the newest one built before war had 150m.

Schichau, Danzig - had 6 slips: two <120m, two 150-200m and two >200m

Vulcan, Stettin - had 4 slips >150m

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:56 pm**

ORIGINAL: mlees

I believe that is with a prepped load. (The gun crews have the spare powder and shells brought up to, and sitting in, the turret house, the guns are loaded and primed, and more shells waiting in the hoists.) With the stop-watch starting at the first salvo, any ship looks good for the first few minutes, especially if the guns are being fired without being readjusted based on new fire control data.
After the first initial few minutes, this rate of fire slows down, and the guns will have to be retargeted based on spotting and radar data (or shifting to a new target).

This is an excerpt from navweaps(dot)com:

3) Many references claim that this was the fastest firing large caliber gun ever built. The ROF figures listed above represent generally published data that would support that claim. However, Krupp official documents cite the ROF as being 26 seconds at a four degree elevation, not notably faster than that of other nations' large-caliber weapons. Note that at this elevation the range would be considerably less than 10,000 meters. It is possible that well trained gun crews would reduce this time to the 20 seconds necessary to meet a ROF of 3 times per minute. A May 1941 report by the German Artillerieversuchskommando - AVSK (Artillery Testing Command for Ships) stated that the turret ammunition hoists on Bismarck were capable of delivering between 23 and 25 rounds per minute (for all four turrets), the equivalent of 3 rounds per minute per gun. However, this same report stated that design faults in the hoists led to two significant breakdowns during the evaluation, both of which caused long interruptions in the ammunition supply. Finally, it should be noted that Bismarck fired a total of 91 rounds during her thirteen minutes of firing at the Denmark Strait battle, which is actually less than one round per gun per minute.

Link:http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.htm

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:11 pm**

But the Bismarck didn't fire all the time in this 13 minutes. Remember Kapitän zur See Ernst Lindeman said: "I don't let my ship shot into pieces - open fire"...

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:58 pm**

ORIGINAL: Historiker

In addition to the known shipyards, I've found some more

The known:

LLoyd Werft Bremerhaven (2x121m, 1x160m,, 1x335m, 2 more long with unkown lenght, new)

The Lloyd Werft was a repair yard at the time, no new construction

LMG Lübeck (4x120m)

more like 70m, 100m, 110m 120m

Meyerwerft Papenburg (new)

The old Meyerwerft had one slip and was just big enough to build coastal freighters, trawlers, minesweepers etc., max 100m. The new yard was built from 1975 on.

Neptun Rostock
Nordseewerke GmbH Emden
Tecklenborg-Werft Bremen (7 slipways up to 225m new)

Didn't know Tecklenborg was that big. But they never built any warships of note.

Smaller shipyards:
Abeking & Rasmussen Lemwerder (new)

a boat yard at the time <60m

Atlas Werke, Bremen

built minesweepers in WWII

Cassens-Werft Emden

before 1945 mainly river ships and coastal vessels <100m

Elsflether Werft

Minesweepers in WWII

Fassmer Bremen

a boatyard

Flender, Lübeck
Flensburger Schiffbau

both part of the submarine/minesweeper program

Hamburger Schiffsbau-Versuchsanstalt Hamburg (new)

not a yard at all

Hansawerft Bremen (new)
Hegemann-Werft Bremen (new, may not exist at that time)
Hitzler, Lauenburg

U-Boat program

Kröger Werft Warnemünde+Stralsund (new)

boat yards (Yachtwerft) Flugsicherungsboote, R-Boote & KFK in WWII
postwar Warnowwerft/Volkswerft Stralsund

Langewerft Bremen (new)

ceased operations in 1860

Lindenau, Kiel (new)
Lindenau, Memel

Lindenau, Kiel: postwar founded by Lindenau, Memel, personnell
Minesweeper program

Lürssens Bremen

THE S-Boat yard in WWII, motor yachts pre-war

Meidericher Schiffswerft Duisburg (110m Slipway, new)

river boats, some steel work for Type XXI program

Nobiskrug Rendsburg (today 2 drydocks, 2 slipways, new)
Rickmers, Wesermünde (up to 8000 BRT, at least two slipways)

minesweepers

Schichau Königsberg
Seebeck, Bremerhaven (at least two slipways, ships up to at least 7800 BRT, DDs, SSs http://werften.fischtown.de/archiv/ssw5.html)

had orders for six Zerstörer 1938B, then part of the U-Boat/M-Boat
program

Unterweser Schiffbau, Lehe
Weichselwerft Schröttersberg (new, I don't know where Schröttersberg is, but it was part of Poland in 1939)

You've written "Bremer Vulcan" - do you mean A.G. Weser with that?

No, Bremer Vulkan was a separate yard.

Papenburg itself had around 20 shipyards until 1920 but most of them got bankrupt after the lost war, so one should be (in theorie) able to calculate with them, too.

Jemals in Papenburg gewesen? Die Stadt ist um Entwässerungskanäle herum gebaut worden. Das können höchstens Bootswerften gewesen sein (Logger, Ewer usw.); die alte Meyerwerft war sicher die größte am Ort.
(Partial translation: Judging from what I've seen from Papenburg, those yards must have been boat yards for fishery vessels and coastal sailers; the old Meyer yard was pretty certainly the largest in the place)

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:15 am**

The known:
A.G. Vulcan Bremen (6 slipways)
A.G. Vulcan Hamburg (3 slipways)
A.G. Vulcan Stettin (4x>150m)
A.G. Weser Bremen (5 long slipways, 11 total)
Blohm & Voß, Hamburg (8 slipways)
Deutsche Werft, Hamburg (6 slipways)
Friedrich Krupp Germaniawerft Kiel (8 slipways)
H.C. Stülcken & Sohn in Hamburg-Steinwerder
Howaldtswerke Kiel (4 slipways)
Kaiserliche Werft, Danzig (3 slipways, 150m)
Kaiserliche Werft Kiel
Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshafen / Kriegsmarinewerft
LLoyd Werft Bremerhaven (2x121m, 1x160m,, 1x335m, 2 more long with unkown lenght, new)
Neptun Rostock
Nordseewerke GmbH Emden
Tecklenborg-Werft Bremen (7 slipways up to 225m)
Schichau Danzig (2x120m, 2x 150-200m, 2x >200m)
Schichau Elbig (5 slipways)

Smaller shipyards:
Abeking & Rasmussen Lernwerder (<60m, so PC, PC, MSW, possibly SS)
Atlas Werke, Bremen
Cassens-Werft Emden (<100m - how many slipways?)
Elsflether Werft
Fassmer Bremen
Flender, Lübeck (possible SS)
Flensburger Schiffbau (possible SS)
Hansawerft Bremen (possible SS)
Hegemann-Werft Bremen (possible SS)
Hitzler, Lauenburg (possible SS)
Klawitter, Danzig (3000t slipways?)
Kröger Werft Warnemünde+Stralsund (small ships)
Lindenau, Memel (small ships, MSW)
LMG Lübeck (70m, 100m, 110m, 120m)
Lürssens Bremen (small ships, PT)
Meyerwerft Papenburg (how many slipways?)
Meidericher Schiffswerft Duisburg (110m Slipway)
Norbiskrug Rendsburg (today 2 drydocks, 2 slipways)
Rickmers, Wesermünde (up to 8000 BRT, at least two slipways)
Sachsenberg Werke in Rosslau (today Rosslauer Schiffswerft), Köln-Deutz, Stettin (so 3 citys, at least 3 slipways, building steampowered steelships since 1869 - size of slipways? new)
Schichau Königsberg
Seebeck, Bremerhaven (at least two slipways, ships up to at least 7800 BRT, DDs, SSs)
Unterweser Schiffbau, Lehe

Polish shipyards:
Państwowa Stocznia Rzeczna w Modlinie, Modlin (at least 200t: MSW, SC, PC, PT)
Stocznia Gdynia (2500t floating dock, 1 slipway-lenght?)
Stocznia Marynarki Wojennej (Naval Shipyard), Gdynia (500t, 130m slipway, 5000t floating dock)
Weichselwerft Plock: PC, PG, SS, small AK/AP (at least 2 slipways)

It isn't important whether Tecklenborg hasn't built any warships, yet. I'm pretty sure they'll be able to construct the hulk of a ship and it can be towed to a "usual" warship yard after launching for the rest of the work. Anyway, the Navy will need some large AP, AK, AO and the (unarmoured) hull for CVL or CVE can be constructed there as well...

No, I haven't been at Papenburg, yet. But I now have Rösslers Geschichte des deutschen U-Bootbaus, so maybe you can tell me where the informations about shipyards can be found in there - I'm short on time and why searching when you know it?)

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:59 am**

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Polish shipyards:
Weichselwerft Plock: PC, PG, SS, small AK/AP (is it possible that there's another Weichselwerft at Schröttersberg? AFAIK Plock was never named Schröttersberg and there was definitly a Weichselwerft at Schröttersberg!)

Actually, Plock was renamed Schröttersberg in 1941. So it was a name which lasted only for wartime (like Gdynia (which in German was Gdingen - during wartime name was changed to Gotenhafen). Also this tiny shipyard has capacity to bouild at least two vessels, because after the war was divided into two tiny shipyards.

In Gdansk there was another one shipyard.
Klawitter, Danzig - merchants up to 3000t by using floating dock

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:26 am**

Gdynia:
Stocznia Gdynia (Gdynia Shipyard): - from 1927 can build ships up to 2500t using floating dock, in 1938 first slipway was added.
Stocznia Marynarki Wojennej (Naval Shipyard), Gdynia: - from 1933 can build ships up to 350t, in 1937 that was increased to 500t. Just before war new slipway (130m) and floating dock (5000t) were added.

Modlin:
Państwowa Stocznia Rzeczna w Modlinie (National Riverrine Shipyard at Modlin - NW of Warsaw): - launched two 200t minesweepers, which were completed at Gdynia)

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:54 am**

Thx Monter_Trismegistos!

Fate of the Cruisers:
Kaiserin Augusta -> ML
Victoria Louise class (5) -> ML
Gazelle class (7) -> ML
Fürst Bismarck -> Poland ML
Prinz Heinrich -> Finland ML
Bremen class (5) -> ML: 2 Finland, 2 Poland, 1 Germany
SMS Roon (CA) -> Finland
Königsberg class old (2) -> Finland
Kolberg class (2) -> Poland CLAA 2x10,5cm; 8x2x3,7cm; 8x4x2cm; 8x2x2cm
Magdeburg class (2) -> Poland CLAA replaced the 10,5 with the 10,5 DP (1916 Breslau
armement)
Graudenz class (2) -> Finland CLAA replaced the 10,5cm with 10,5cm DP
Pillau -> Poland CL
Frankfurt -> Finland CL
Brummer class -> Finland CL/ML
Königsberg replacement -> Hulk, gets rearmed as colonial Cruiser after 1936 (4)

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:05 am**

Torpedoboats:
G38, G39, G40, G41, G42, V45 to Finland

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:17 pm**

Fleets on 12/36:

Germany:
10 BB:
- 2 Bayern class, modernized: Baden, Bayern
- 2 Derfflinger class, modernized to fast BB: Derfflinger, Hindenburg
- 6 Feldmarschall class, produced in the early 30th: Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Blücher, Zieten, Moltke, Schlieffen
4 CV:
- 4 Mackensen class: Graf Zeppelin, Oswald Boelcke, Frh. von Richthofen (propably Peter Strasser, I have to read how much he had shot down until 2/17 - I'm not sure whether enough to be mentioned this way), Max Immelmann
11 CAs, all pocket battleships of the Deutschland class
18 CL, most of Königsberg III class; 4 more CL of the Königsberg II class will be reactivated as colonial cruisers within some month.
65 DD
55 SS
6 big ML:
- Kaiserin Augusta
- 5 Victoria Louise class: Victoria Louise, Hertha, Freya, Vineta, Hansa
8 small MLs:
- 7 Gazelle class: Gazelle, Niobe, Nymphe, Thetis, Amazone, Medusa, Arcona
- 1 Bremen class: Hamburg

Disarmed but ready after ~ a year:
15 BBs
- 4 Nassau class: Nassau (museum ship), Westfalen, Rheinland, Posen
- 4 Helgoland class: Helgoland, Ostfriesland, Thürigen, Oldenburg
- 4 König class: König, Großer Kurfürst, Markgraf, Kronprinz
- 3 Kaiser class: Kaiser, Friedrich der Große, Kaiserin (target ship)
14 pre-Dread BCs/CAs
- 1 Brandenburg class: Brandenburg (museum ship)
- 5 Kaiser Friedrich III. class: Kaiser Friedrich III., Kaiser Wilhelm II, Kaiser Karl der Große, Kaiser Wilhelm der Große, Kaiser Barbarossa
- 5 Wittelsbach class: Wittelsbach, Wettin, Zähringen, Schwaben, Mecklemburg
- 3 Braunschweig class: Hessen, Preußen, Lothringen

Poland:
2 BBs:
- 2 Kaiser class: Prinzregent Luitpold, König Albert
2 pre-Dread:
- 4 Deutschland class: Hannover, Deutschland,
4 CLAAs
- 2 Kolberg class: Kolberg, Augsburg
- 2 Magdeburg class: Straßburg, Stralsund
1 CL
- 1 Pillau class: Elbig
1 big ML:
- Fürst Bismarck
2 small ML:
- 2 Bremen class: Berlin, Lübeck

Poland will rearm this ships within a year:
2 pre-Dreads BCs/CAs
- 2 Schleswig-Holstein (target ship), Schlesien (training ship)

Finland:
2 BC:
- Von der Tann
- Seydlitz
2 pre-Dread BCs/CAs:
- 2 Braunschweig class: Braunschweig, Elsass
1 CA:
- 1 Roon class: Roon
3 CL:
- 2 Königsberg I class: Stuttgart, Stettin
- 1 Wiesbaden class: Frankfurt
2 CLAA:
- 2 Graudenz class: Graudenz, Regensburg
2 CL/ML
- 2 Brummer class: Brummer, Bremse
1 big ML:
- Prinz Heinrich
2 small ML:
- 2 Bremen class: München, Danzig
6 TBs:
- 6 Großes Torpedoboot 1913 class: G38, G39, G40, G41, G42, V45

I'll try to find out how many TBs/DDs had survived until spring 1917 to equip both Germany and its allies with them.

Russia:
7 BBs
2 CV
~ 8 CA
~ 10 CL
DDs
SSs
old Russian ships:

1 Borodino class pre-Dread: Slava
2 Evstafi class pre-Dread: Ioann Zlatoust, Evstafi
2 Adrei Prevozvanny class pre-Dread
4 Gangut BB
3 Imperatritsa Mariya class
4 Borodina class BBs

Austria-Hungary:
4 BBs
1 CV (CVL? Austria doesn't really need CVs but 1-2 CVs are allowed)
~ 6-8 CA
~ 8 CL
DDs
SSs

old ships:
3 Erzherzog Karl class pre-Dread: reclassified as CA, 24cm main armement replaced by tripple 20,3cm: Erzherzog Karl, Erzherzog Friedrich, Erzherzog Ferdinand Max
3 Radetzky class pre-Dreads: Radetzky, Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand, Zrinyi
3 Habsburg class pre-Dreads: Has anyone data? If not we'll have to scrap them

4 Viribus Unitis class: Viribus Unitis, Tegetthoff, Prinz Eugen, Szent István
3 Armoured Cruisers: Kaiserin und Königin Maria Theresia, Kaiser Karl VI, Sankt Georg
7 CL: Aspern, Szigetvar, Zenta, Admiral Spaun, Saida, Helgoland, Novara
21 DDs: 12 Huszar class, 1 Warasdiner class, 8 Tatra class
Yugoslavia:
uncertain. The Austrians have the following obsolete ships for Yugoslavia (if they don't use them themselves):
4 BBs (Viribus Unitis class)
9 pre-Dread
4 coastal defence ships
3 armoured cruisers
6 light cruisers
minus the Austrial losses until 2/17

Italy?
6 BBs
2-3 CVs
? CA
? CL?
+ DDs
+ SSs

Allies:
Turkey:
2 BC:
- 2 Moltke class: Moltke, Goeben
2 pre-Dread BCs/CAs
- 2 Brandenburg class: Weißenburg, Wörth (Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm sunk 1915)
1 CL
- 1 Magdeburg class: Breslau
Has anyone informations about the number of cruisers, destroyers and subs in Turkish service?

Japan?

GB?

USA?

France?

Neutrals/ still to decide on which side to join (probably as "soviet inactive", with house rules or from the beginning:

Spain/Portugal uncertain, but both on one side
Denmark/Norway/Sweden propably on axis side as the British may cut off Narvik
Chile/Argentina propably on TEA side
Brazil?
Netherlands propably on TEA side as good relations but only if attacked - but why should the Netherlands be attacked? On the other hand: why should Germany attack the Netherlands without a Hitler? But I would like to add the Netherlands after their naval expansion plans that they really did in this scenario, so propably 2-5 BBs/BCs + rest
Belgium propably allied side

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:57 pm**

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Thx Monter_Trismegistos!

Fate of the Cruisers:
Kaiserin Augusta -> ML
Victoria Louise class (5) -> ML
Gazelle class (7) -> ML
Fürst Bismarck -> Poland ML
Prinz Heinrich -> Finland ML
Bremen class (5) -> ML: 2 Finland, 2 Poland, 1 Germany
SMS Roon (CA) -> Finland
Königsberg class old (2) -> Finland
Kolberg class (2) -> Poland CLAA 2x10,5cm; 8x2x3,7cm; 8x4x2cm; 8x2x2cm
Magdeburg class (2) -> Poland CLAA replaced the 10,5 with the 10,5 DP (1916 Breslau
armement)
Graudenz class (2) -> Finland CLAA replaced the 10,5cm with 10,5cm DP
Pillau -> Poland CL
Frankfurt -> Finland CL
Brummer class -> Finland CL/ML
Königsberg replacement -> Hulk, gets rearmed as colonial Cruiser after 1936 (4)

The Gazelle class and most of the Panzerkreuzer were really ready for scrapping ("abgefahren"); several of the bigger ships were already used as accommodation hulks (Wohnschiffe) during the war; several of the pre-dreadnought BB's were used in a similar manner. I doubt that converting them to ML's would have been worth it economically. The surviving Kolberg, Magdeburg and Graudenz class, had already been rearmed with 15 cm guns from 1916 onwards, so rearming them again to CLAA's is not as attractive as you think - maybe if enough modern cruisers are in service, but those are prewar classes, and must be expensive to maintain.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:28 pm**

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Fleets on 12/36:

Germany:
10 BB:
- 2 Bayern class, modernized: Baden, Bayern
- 2 Derfflinger class, modernized to fast BB: Derfflinger, Hindenburg
- 6 Feldmarschall class, produced in the early 30th: Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Blücher, Zieten, Moltke, Schlieffen
4 CV:
- 4 Mackensen class: Graf Zeppelin, Oswald Boelcke, Frh. von Richthofen (propably Peter Strasser, I have to read how much he had shot down until 2/17 - I'm not sure whether enough to be mentioned this way), Max Immelmann
11 CAs, all pocket battleships of the Deutschland class
18 CL, most of Königsberg III class; 4 more CL of the Königsberg II class will be reactivated as colonial cruisers within some month.
65 DD
55 SS
6 big ML:
- Kaiserin Augusta
- 5 Victoria Louise class: Victoria Louise, Hertha, Freya, Vineta, Hansa
8 small MLs:
- 7 Gazelle class: Gazelle, Niobe, Nymphe, Thetis, Amazone, Medusa, Arcona
- 1 Bremen class: Hamburg

Disarmed but ready after ~ a year:
15 BBs
- 4 Nassau class: Nassau (museum ship), Westfalen, Rheinland, Posen
- 4 Helgoland class: Helgoland, Ostfriesland, Thürigen, Oldenburg
- 4 König class: König, Großer Kurfürst, Markgraf, Kronprinz
- 3 Kaiser class: Kaiser, Friedrich der Große, Kaiserin (target ship)
14 pre-Dread BCs/CAs
- 1 Brandenburg class: Brandenburg (museum ship)
- 5 Kaiser Friedrich III. class: Kaiser Friedrich III., Kaiser Wilhelm II, Kaiser Karl der Große, Kaiser Wilhelm der Große, Kaiser Barbarossa
- 5 Wittelsbach class: Wittelsbach, Wettin, Zähringen, Schwaben, Mecklemburg
- 3 Braunschweig class: Hessen, Preußen, Lothringen

Poland:
2 BBs:
- 2 Kaiser class: Prinzregent Luitpold, König Albert
2 pre-Dread:
- 4 Deutschland class: Hannover, Deutschland,
4 CLAAs
- 2 Kolberg class: Kolberg, Augsburg
- 2 Magdeburg class: Straßburg, Stralsund
1 CL
- 1 Pillau class: Elbig
1 big ML:
- Fürst Bismarck
2 small ML:
- 2 Bremen class: Berlin, Lübeck

Poland will rearm this ships within a year:
2 pre-Dreads BCs/CAs
- 2 Schleswig-Holstein (target ship), Schlesien (training ship)

Finland:
2 BC:
- Von der Tann
- Seydlitz
2 pre-Dread BCs/CAs:
- 2 Braunschweig class: Braunschweig, Elsass
1 CA:
- 1 Roon class: Roon
3 CL:
- 2 Königsberg I class: Stuttgart, Stettin
- 1 Wiesbaden class: Frankfurt
2 CLAA:
- 2 Graudenz class: Graudenz, Regensburg
2 CL/ML
- 2 Brummer class: Brummer, Bremse
1 big ML:
- Prinz Heinrich
2 small ML:
- 2 Bremen class: München, Danzig
6 TBs:
- 6 Großes Torpedoboot 1913 class: G38, G39, G40, G41, G42, V45

I'll try to find out how many TBs/DDs had survived until spring 1917 to equip both Germany and its allies with them.

Russia:
7 BBs
2 CV
~ 8 CA
~ 10 CL
DDs
SSs
old Russian ships:

1 Borodino class pre-Dread: Slava
2 Evstafi class pre-Dread: Ioann Zlatoust, Evstafi
2 Adrei Prevozvanny class pre-Dread
4 Gangut BB
3 Imperatritsa Mariya class
4 Borodina class BBs

Austria-Hungary:
4 BBs
1 CV (CVL? Austria doesn't really need CVs but 1-2 CVs are allowed)
~ 6-8 CA
~ 8 CL
DDs
SSs

old ships:
3 Erzherzog Karl class pre-Dread: reclassified as CA, 24cm main armement replaced by tripple 20,3cm: Erzherzog Karl, Erzherzog Friedrich, Erzherzog Ferdinand Max
3 Radetzky class pre-Dreads: Radetzky, Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand, Zrinyi
3 Habsburg class pre-Dreads: Has anyone data? If not we'll have to scrap them
4 Viribus Unitis class: Viribus Unitis, Tegetthoff, Prinz Eugen, Szent István
3 Armoured Cruisers: Kaiserin und Königin Maria Theresia, Kaiser Karl VI, Sankt Georg
7 CL: Aspern, Szigetvar, Zenta, Admiral Spaun, Saida, Helgoland, Novara
21 DDs: 12 Huszar class, 1 Warasdiner class, 8 Tatra class
Yugoslavia:
uncertain. The Austrians have the following obsolete ships for Yugoslavia (if they don't use them themselves):
4 BBs (Viribus Unitis class)
9 pre-Dread
4 coastal defence ships
3 armoured cruisers
6 light cruisers
minus the Austrial losses until 2/17

Italy?
6 BBs
2-3 CVs
? CA
? CL?
+ DDs
+ SSs

Allies:
Turkey:
2 BC:
- 2 Moltke class: Moltke, Goeben
2 pre-Dread BCs/CAs
- 2 Brandenburg class: Weißenburg, Wörth (Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm sunk 1915)
1 CL
- 1 Magdeburg class: Breslau
Has anyone informations about the number of cruisers, destroyers and subs in Turkish service?

Japan?

GB?

USA?

France?

Neutrals/ still to decide on which side to join (probably as "soviet inactive", with house rules or from the beginning:

Spain/Portugal uncertain, but both on one side
Denmark/Norway/Sweden propably on axis side as the British may cut off Narvik
Chile/Argentina propably on TEA side
Brazil?
Netherlands propably on TEA side as good relations but only if attacked - but why should the Netherlands be attacked? On the other hand: why should Germany attack the Netherlands without a Hitler? But I would like to add the Netherlands after their naval expansion plans that they really did in this scenario, so propably 2-5 BBs/BCs + rest
Belgium propably allied side

Peter Strasser was a Navy Zeppelin captain, not a fighter pilot.

I doubt if anyone would have wanted to keep all the old ships, most of them were rotting at their moorings even during WWI. The Finns wouldn't probably have had the resources to operate the BC's, even the old BB's would have been a stretch, with crews of 750. I don't believe the other powers would have allowed Germany to keep all the BB's, even disarmed, maybe 2-3 as training ships or targets. I must say, however, that a Helgoland class, somewhat modernized (maybe with Diesel engines) would seem to me the right kind of ship to force the Oslofjord, certainly better than what the Kriegsmarine used IRL.

Turkish ships (taken from Weyer 1918):
1 BB Torgud Reiss (Weißenburg)
1 coastal BB Muin-I-Zafer (1869, modernized 1907)
1 BC (Goeben)
2 CL Hamidije (1908 Elswick)
Breslau
(CL Medjidije, sister of Hamidije, sunk in 1915 near Odessa, raised and repaired by Russia, served in the Black Seas fleet as Prut, repossessed after the Russian capitulation)
26 gunboats, 200-650 ts, built between 1883 and 1913
9 destroyers, 305-775 ts, 1907-09
8 Torpedo boats, 97-160 ts, 1901-1908
1 SS ex French Turquoise, captured undamaged after stranding; I doubt that the Turks put it into service.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:55 pm**

Weyers... I really should have thought myself to look into it - especially as I've just ordered the 1918 and 1941 versions some weeks ago...
Anyway, thank you!

Well, I know what you mean with the old ships, and you are absolutly right! More than that: If you look at the 66 pre-Dreads and BBs on TEA side, I should consider a loss of at least 1 or 2 of them by fire, running aground, sudden explosion, ramming another ship...

But my idea of the HKD scenario is, to give the allies an enemy at sea that is really a threat - for more than just the first month of the war like in the Pacific. This may offer interested player not only the possibility to play in europe, but also a scenario with both sides of almoust even strength or maybe even a weaker allied side. To achieve this without simply adding dozens of ships out of nowhere, it is important to trick in every possible way.

As the TEA will never have enough Carriers to face the Essex class and the endless numbers of CVE that are produced in the US and England, they will need every AAA that's available. They may be equipped with modern Cruisers after 36, too, but most of the old Cruisers are to slow compared with modern ones as it is most unlikely that all of them get equipped with modern engines. By replaceing most or all of their guns with 10,5cm or 12,8cm DP and putting 2x3,7cm and 4x2cm on every free place on the deck, they regain much value for the TEA.

I want to even it up a bit and for that it's needed to ignore the fact that these ships were old. (Anyway: look at other navies which kept their BBs or CAs in service for more than half a century like the scandinavic coastal defense ships, the south american Dreadnoughts or the ARA General Belgrano which was over 40 years old when she was sunk in 1982. - so if there's a will...)

I know that Peter Strasser was no fighter pilot, but Graf Zeppelin wasn't that as well. I took this name as there were rumors that the Flugzeugträger B was intended to be named Peter Strasser.
Other possible CV names:
- Karl Jatho
- Otto Lilienthal
- Paul Hermann Wölfert
- Rudolf Hans Bartsch von Siegsfeld
- Georg Baumgarten
- Paul Haenlein

Most of them propably for CVL and CVE.

Posted: **Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:25 am**

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Fleets on 12/36:

I'll try to find out how many TBs/DDs had survived until spring 1917 to equip both Germany and its allies with them.

Germany started the war with 213 torpedo boats and built 82 big and 59 small torpedo boats until mid-1917. I don't know the date when your WWI ends; if it is February then this number is lower by 2-3 big and 8 - 10 small boats.

For postwar use you can certainly forget all boats with reciprocating engines (Kolbendampfmaschinen) because of age, size and armament; most of them were used during the war on sercondary duties like minesweeping; they'd probably be used up at the end of the war.

That leaves the pre-war turbine boats:
the 1908 flotilla (V162-G173) mainly coal-fired, with 45 cm torps,
the 1909 and 1910 flotillas, practically the same design, G174-G197
mainly coal-fired, and with 4-50cm TT
the 1911/1912 flotillas: V1-S24; the boats were smaller than the preceding type and were regarded as unsatisfactory especially concerning their seaworthiness (nickname:Lans-Krüppel or Lans-cripples, after the Inspector of Torpedo Forces who was responsible for their smaller size; they were armed with 4-50cm TT and also mainly coal-fired
and finally the first two boats of the 1913 flotilla: V25-26, fully oil-fired, with three guns and 6-50cm TT.

Completed during the war were the remaining ten 1913 boats (V27-S36), the twelve 1914 boats (G37-V48) that were essentially repeats of the 1913 design, 48 Mob(ilization) boats, repeats of the 1914 type (S49-G96), four large detroyers originally built for Argentina (G101-104) with four guns and 6-50cm TT, and two Vulcan and six Blohm&Voss destroyers of about 1200 ts with similar armament to the ex-Argentine boats (B97-98, V99-100, B109-112) which were derived from Russian Novik-type destroyers and used parts and engines originally ordered by Russia for their new destroyers.

The small boats (V105-108, A1-55)were too small for fleet operations and were mainly used on coastal operations, especially in Flanders, and on escort duties.

Suitable for postwar use would be in the first place all big boats ordered 1913 or later, a total of 84 boats of which 21 were lost until February 1917 and a further six until June, so depending on date of armistice there would be 57-63 boats left;
in second place the 1909-1912 boats, a total of 48, seven of which were lost until mid-1917, leaving 41; these would have to be modernised for postwar use. Everything left to the Reichsmarine after Versailles were boats of this group, and the Reichsmarine had to invest heavily to keep them serviceable.

The 1908 boats were probably too lightly-armed and too used up to keep them, while all the small boats were single-shaft ships with just one 45cm torpedo tube and speeds below 29 kts, possily useful as patrol vessels if nothing better was available; 55 of them were left after mid-1917.

In a what-if context it may be interesting to know that Schichau offered to build another nine big destroyers from Russian-ordered parts in 1914 and B&V offered another four early in 1915, but the navy declined the offers because they didn't expect the war to last long enough; all these boats might have been in service in time for Jutland otherwise.

Posted: **Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:31 am**

ORIGINAL: Historiker

I know that Peter Strasser was no fighter pilot, but Graf Zeppelin wasn't that as well. I took this name as there were rumors that the Flugzeugträger B was intended to be named Peter Strasser.

Peter Strasser would certainly have been a fitting name for a CV, as he was the commander of the Navy Zeppelin Force, but he was killed in August of 1918 and wouldn't be a dead-enough hero in your scenario.

Posted: **Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:01 am**

ORIGINAL: mikemike

ORIGINAL: Historiker

I know that Peter Strasser was no fighter pilot, but Graf Zeppelin wasn't that as well. I took this name as there were rumors that the Flugzeugträger B was intended to be named Peter Strasser.

Peter Strasser would certainly have been a fitting name for a CV, as he was the commander of the Navy Zeppelin Force, but he was killed in August of 1918 and wouldn't be a dead-enough hero in your scenario.

Poor Peter Strasser - just not dead enough to get the honor of having a CV with his name [;)]

I don't think he necessarily has to be dead to have his name used for a ship. Mackensen was still alive when the Mackensen class was laied down, the SMS Hindenburg was named after Hindenburg who lived until 1934, etc.
But did he do enough things until 2/17 to be mentioned this way?

@TB/DD
I don't think we have to concern about the old ships. There are more than enough of them and even the Finnish are able to build them for themselfes, as well as Poland. They don't take long to be built, so there's no need to use very old ones. But I may take some of the designs.
I think some of the small ones may be still in service to guard the strait between denmark and sweden, some may be in reserve for coastal guard service.
I like the Design of the Torpedobootzerstörer, perhaps all of them might be fitted with FPs. The Großes Torpedoboot 1916Mob, Großes Torpedoboot 1916, Großes Torpedoboot 1913, GTB 1911 and GTB 1906 Designs look usefull. I've just read that many of the GTB 1906 were still used within the Kriegsmarine, so if the old ships are maintained regulary, there is no need to scrap them until the next war - if their design still fits the demands.
When I replace their gun armement with DP 8,8; 10,5 or even 12,8cm guns and add some light AAA, they will be even useful against planes as well.

@old designs
Some of the pre-Dread may be reclassified as CA, especially if their heavy armement is replaced by 20,3cm guns. I might then say that only the Washington Naval Treaty was signed so that there's no limitation in everything smaller than a BC. In this case, many ships may be kept in service and consequently are maintained properly.
London 1930 may have happend, but as France and Italy didn't sign it - why should Austria and Russia sign it?
Russia is something more to consider: How likely is it, that the Russians accept a fleet like France and Italy? They have three totally isolated areas with Asia, the Black Sea and the East Sea/Arctic Sea (which are strictly speaking isolated, too). With only 6-7 BBs, this would mean only 2 BBs in each area which makes each area to weak for every considerable enemy. While the fleet all together might be quite powerful on paper, this three seperate fleets might each be easily destroyed... So how likely is it, that Russia accepts such a treaty? Wouldn't Russia demand something like 5:1,75 both for Asia and Europe?

Moreover: As I have a Poland, Finnland and Yugoslavia (I think Greece must be on TEA side as well, as they would more likely take the chance to conquer something of Turkey than to fight against Yugoslavia and Russia) armed with BBs and pre-Dreads to enlarge the TEA fleet, why not consider the Dominion countrys having declared their full independance after WW1? So their fleets aren't integreated in the RN. This would mean the RN itself will have some more ships while Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zeeland might all have 1-2 BBs/BCs plus cruisers and destroyers each.

One more thing:
Look how fast the "Friendship" between France and Germany was installed after 1945. It was already in 1952, when the EGKS was founded and in 1963 the Elysée Treaty was signed. In my scenario, Germany accepted peace as there's no big chance to win the war while the loss of the war isn't likely as well. The monarchs of GB and Germany are related and Germany offers together with the armisteace a regulation of the fleet to offer security to britain. So why shouldn't both countrys start a process of conciliation after 1917? This is absolutly possible as the war doesn't break out because of Germany attacking GB oder F or vice versa - it breaks out when the Russian Airforce attacks British ships in Persia. Germany, France and GB are just forced to fight against each other because of their alliances, not because of hatred between the peoples or because of long planned war aims.
While France and GB wouldn't ring their alarm bells when Germany enlarges its army nowadays, there might be more tolerance for a naval expansion program or the preservation of old ships as it would have been between the two Wold Wars IRL.
Assuming this will allow the TEAs nations to have a stronger navy than one would usually consider.

Posted: **Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:02 pm**

ORIGINAL: Historiker

I don't think he necessarily has to be dead to have his name used for a ship. Mackensen was still alive when the Mackensen class was laied down, the SMS Hindenburg was named after Hindenburg who lived until 1934, etc.
But did he do enough things until 2/17 to be mentioned this way?

He might have - he was the inventor of the strategy of attacks from the air on the civilian population to undermine morale. Those chickens would come home to roost with a vengeance in WWII; and it must have made him very unpopular in Britain.

@TB/DD

I think some of the small ones may be still in service to guard the strait between denmark and sweden, some may be in reserve for coastal guard service.

You don't need the old boats for that, there are about 50 new A-class boats for those purposes

I've just read that many of the GTB 1906 were still used within the Kriegsmarine, so if the old ships are maintained regulary, there is no need to scrap them until the next war - if their design still fits the demands.

Sure the Reichsmarine/Kriegsmarine used those old crocks - it was all they had left in the beginning. I know the website you got your class information from, but the boats ordered between 1906 and 1910 were at least 4 distinct classes. Using the 1909/1910 boats would be feasible, if you're prepared to pay for the reconstruction, but I don't know if it would be cost-effective - the boats were really too small for any worthwhile modern armament.

@old designs
Some of the pre-Dread may be reclassified as CA, especially if their heavy armement is replaced by 20,3cm guns. I might then say that only the Washington Naval Treaty was signed so that there's no limitation in everything smaller than a BC. In this case, many ships may be kept in service and consequently are maintained properly.

Technically feasible - but be warned - the pre-dreadnoughts are deathtraps. Remember what happened to SMS Pommern at Jutland - one torpedo hit and the ship blew up with all hands. I think there ought to be a better use for 850 crewmembers.

One more thing:
Look how fast the "Friendship" between France and Germany was installed after 1945. It was already in 1952, when the EGKS was founded and in 1963 the Elysée Treaty was signed. In my scenario, Germany accepted peace as there's no big chance to win the war while the loss of the war isn't likely as well.

The difference is that after 1945 Germany was irrevocably, utterly and undisputably beaten and chopped up and its parts useful as buffer zones for their respective victors, while in your scenario Germany remains as an empire, even with an expanded alliance. I don't think the French would have been inclined to friendship in that case

The monarchs of GB and Germany are related

That was actually part of the problem. King Edward VII cordially loathed his nephew Wilhelm II, whom he regarded as a loudmouthed upstart. There might have been an element of jealousy in that, as Wilhelm II was his mother's favourite grandchild. Anyway, that attitude certainly influenced British foreign policy. Churchill fought against Germany to eliminate a dangerous rival to the British Empire. This was also his main motive in WWII - I'm convinced he would happily have waged war against any kind of German government, not just against Hitler. I don't believe Britain would have consented to leaving Wilhelm II on the throne - not when the very effective British propaganda had been busily painting him as a bloodthirsty, baby-killing monster.

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