PzcK vs CMBB

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Mobius
But unexperience is not a one way street. The rookie may not know what to expect and stick in place when he shouldn't. In the Mcensk battles the BT-7 faced PZ3 in a hopeless match and none retreared in any of the battles.
At first PaK 35/36 faced KVs and T34s until the word spread that they were worthless against them After that the Germans became aware that their PaK gunner would abandon their guns when a KV or T34 charged them.

Yep, that's the point I was trying to make too - which is why to some degree I think the morale system covers this pretty well. You don't know if a platoon will stay or flee, but you're much more likely to find out once they start taking casualties. Until then, they'll tend to try to follow orders based on the AARs I've read anyway.

We were apparently typing the same idea at the same time.

You can find example of foolish or brave acts done by the experienced or the rookie. I don't like the idea of knowing how they will act based on that level. I think the way it affect morale is a better way of handling it after the fact.
I don't like the idea of tailoring the move of a unit based on its veteran status. I think this takes too much out of the FOW.

[Erik Rutins]

Allright, but let's pipe down and let the AAR continue. [8D]

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Allright, but let's pipe down and let the AAR continue. [8D]

It deserves its own thread.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Mobius
But unexperience is not a one way street. The rookie may not know what to expect and stick in place when he shouldn't. In the Mcensk battles the BT-7 faced PZ3 in a hopeless match and none retreared in any of the battles.
At first PaK 35/36 faced KVs and T34s until the word spread that they were worthless against them After that the Germans became aware that their PaK gunner would abandon their guns when a KV or T34 charged them.

Yep, that's the point I was trying to make too - which is why to some degree I think the morale system covers this pretty well. You don't know if a platoon will stay or flee, but you're much more likely to find out once they start taking casualties. Until then, they'll tend to try to follow orders based on the AARs I've read anyway.

We were apparently typing the same idea at the same time.

You can find example of foolish or brave acts done by the experienced or the rookie. I don't like the idea of knowing how they will act based on that level. I think the way it affect morale is a better way of handling it after the fact.
I don't like the idea of tailoring the move of a unit based on its veteran status. I think this takes too much out of the FOW.

Actually I think this line goes to the heart of PCK and CMBB.

I actually see PCK as more predictable. The unit pretty much sits until damaged/injured. A human then takes over. In CMBB, it has a large number of factors, including a random factor like a dice roll. Where am I mistake in my view.

[thewood1]

I am reading the Battle of Kursk right now.  It is based on the new information that came out of Soviets archives.  The whole first third of the book talks about intensive training in soviet armies to avoid tank panic.  It was applied to infantry, AT, and tank.  It was the problem soviets had with tanks and soldiers running away at the first sight of german armor.  Kursk was one of the first battles where it wasn't a non-negligble issue.  It was about experience/training and morale.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I actually see PCK as more predictable. The unit pretty much sits until damaged/injured. A human then takes over. In CMBB, it has a large number of factors, including a random factor like a dice roll. Where am I mistake in my view.

Well, I think the two morale systems in PCK (both individual unit and platoon) can add the reactions and randomness. For example, when I was trying the "Capture of Balta" scenario Rick posted last night, I had an Engineer squad I'd ordered to rush across a gap between houses take casualties and change its mind, hitting the dirt and then retreating back where it came from. An entire Engineer platoon I was sending around the left flank also withdrew after their lead squad was cut down as they reached the edge of the woods and were spotted and shot at by a previously unspotted Maxim MMG team in a foxhole.

I think the real point is less about randomness and more about whether the additional friction/fog/random elements should kick in before or after units start being disrupted by battle. I can see the arguments in both directions. Ultimately we'll probably end up adding in a bit of what CM does, but not to the same degree since I think having more of these choices in a player's hands (for units that have not broken) is a good thing.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I am reading the Battle of Kursk right now.  It is based on the new information that came out of Soviets archives.  The whole first third of the book talks about intensive training in soviet armies to avoid tank panic.  It was applied to infantry, AT, and tank.  It was the problem soviets had with tanks and soldiers running away at the first sight of german armor.  Kursk was one of the first battles where it wasn't a non-negligble issue.  It was about experience/training and morale.

Good points, but we could probably trade historical examples to support both models - I think each has its good points. Let's instead see how Turn 2 and 3 go for you, I'm very curious regarding your continuing observations as you play these in parallel.

[Capitaine]

The other thing is that PCK only partially solves the borg spotting issue. Without simulating the command net, any unit that spots an enemy unit immediately transmits the info to all other units. They may not be able to target it, but they know its there immediately.

 
I'm not sure a playable game can do any more than that (what PCK does).  Adding tacAI and accurately simulating what I think you're referring to with "the command net", you'd essentially have to have a game that played itself save for broad occasional orders from the player, who only receives "realistic" combat reports from the field.  A sort of micro-HTTR/COTA-type setup.  That is not the kind of game I want to play.

[Ron]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Out of curiosity, do you usually play CM from that zoomed-out top down view you show above?

I haven't played CM in about a year or so, too many other great games!, but that's all I played for several years and I can say I *never* used that zoomed-out top down view. Occasionally I would use the zoomed-in top down view for initial placement in the setup phase to fine tune a units' position. Once playing never top down, but I had heard some swore by it. Probably a concession to the 'times' back then.

IMO I think the merits of PCK will stand out for themselves, without bashing or defending. I also find it ironic wargamers are so passionate about the graphical aspects of the two games lol!

Anyways thanks thewood1 for the play by play. I am very interested in how they both play out as simulations. In particular I am interested in how much of a difference PCK's relative spotting makes in the simulation itself, as well as how the AI handles things. Cheers.

[thewood1]

OK T2 for PCK:
 
Orders phase a couple of the SU76s are now visible.  A P4 takes a few shots with one deflected with no damage.  My infantry are now in position.  I have started my HMG moving to a building about 70m to the front to set up cover for my infantry advance.  By the end of the turn, I have spotted a couple of T70s on the road in corner.  A couple of infantry are now spotted coming down the RR track.
 
In the reaction phase the SU76s start advancing towards their objective, but about 5 sec. later 3 are killed by my P4.  Meanwhile, the P4s started shooting at the BA64s that are just sitting there.  Three shots from each of two P4s later one is dead and the other damaged.  btw, after three shots each from the P4, the ACs never reacted.  Not much else happened.
 
Comments:  The situational awareness in PCK shines here.  while I am looking at the HMG movment, I saw the kills of the SU76s.  I am still having a very hard time finding units, even with icons on.  I have to go right down to the ground to click o infantry units or keep clicking on the unit list until I find it.  One disappointment is I wanted to have the HMGs enter the building, but they will arrive, I am guessing, about 5 seconds into the next turn.  That means waiting at least 35 seconds outside the building while I wait for the turn to end.  Also note ammo selection seems to be good.  Thin skinned SP gun got the APHE love.  One thing I am surprised at is that the SU76s decided to head for the objective even in the middle of a firefight with my P4s.
 
btw, Erik, I checked my settings and they were already on highest.

[thewood1]

I think it is less about borg spotting than different spotting routines that has the impact.  T1 CMBB saw 5 squads immediately coming down the RR track.  PCK only saw two on T2.  Once again, I don't know what the PCK AI is doing with them so some may be stationary, but I doubt it.
 
As far as relative spotting goes, I don't think in this particular scenario it has made a huge difference.  I really thought it would.  The SU76s that were spotted by other units were out of LOS of the P4s anyway so it really didn't matter.  What mattered was knowing they were there.

[thewood1]

T3 PCK

Orders:  I don't give any orders except to mount the HMG in a building.  I get one HMG into a building, but the other is stuck outside.  I'll have to mess around a little to get him cover.  The P4s are heavily engaged now with the SU76s.  The 76s have stopped their headlong flight to the objective to engage the P4s.  More infantry is pouring down the RR track.  One P4 is engaging them with HE.  They kill one squad.  As soon as my HMGs are in place and the 76s are taken care of, I'll start moving out to the RR station.  I have seen two T70s in the back corner headin my way, but I'll just keep an eye on that.  I also saw at the end of reaction an infantry squad pop up in that corner.

Comments:  I seems difficult to suppress infantry in open movement with HE.  My P4 fired 6 rounds, eventually killing one squad.  But none of the other squads nearby even blinked.  Walked right by the bloody bodies.  In CMBB, nearby squads would at least go to a cautious state and slightly susceptible to suppresion.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
In the reaction phase the SU76s start advancing towards their objective, but about 5 sec. later 3 are killed by my P4.  Meanwhile, the P4s started shooting at the BA64s that are just sitting there.  Three shots from each of two P4s later one is dead and the other damaged.  btw, after three shots each from the P4, the ACs never reacted.  Not much else happened.

There's probably one thing we could tweak - have the morale checks happen "during phase" rather than only at the end of the phase. I'm guessing the Soviet order delays didn't do them any favors here either.

I am still having a very hard time finding units, even with icons on.  I have to go right down to the ground to click o infantry units or keep clicking on the unit list until I find it.

Give Bil H's high visibility icon mod a try. Honestly, I cannot lose a unit when playing with that mod on.

One disappointment is I wanted to have the HMGs enter the building, but they will arrive, I am guessing, about 5 seconds into the next turn.  That means waiting at least 35 seconds outside the building while I wait for the turn to end.

I agree that allowing units to "move into mount" would make a lot of sense. For now, I'd give them Defend -> Move orders to cover the last bit of ground so they still could fire if they wanted to and would have the most protection.

One thing I am surprised at is that the SU76s decided to head for the objective even in the middle of a firefight with my P4s.

Was also a bit surprised, but sometimes the AI decides that advancing is more important. I've seen it duke things out for multiple turns and also sometimes rush forward. There is some randomness built in, I think it's fair to say it makes good decisions most of the time.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Comments:  I seems difficult to suppress infantry in open movement with HE.  My P4 fired 6 rounds, eventually killing one squad.  But none of the other squads nearby even blinked.  Walked right by the bloody bodies.  In CMBB, nearby squads would at least go to a cautious state and slightly susceptible to suppresion.

You might try Area Fire that "leads" the enemy squads as that will affect the other squads as well and has double the suppression chance of targeted fire. Targeted fire in PCK affects only the targeted squad, but has a greater chance to hit and cause casualties.

[thewood1]

OK skipping T2 for CMBB since I already talked about it on page 3.

T3 CMBB - a disaster for the germans.

First my P4s are in a long range duel with the remaining SU76s.  If I was the Soviet commander, I would have moved them back out of LOS by now.  But pays off for him.  I lose a P4 while he loses (I think) another SU76.  It was reversing at the time and went out of LOS so it may not be dead.  But still a good trade for the Soviets.  The rest of the SU76s seem to be moving back behind cover, as a good assault gun should.

Second, I was moving my HMGs to support to different platoons in an upcoming assualt.  One HMG took a casualty and is pinned in the open.  I hope they crawl to cover before any more damage is done.  The other is diverted to cover by the TacAI.  I will let is rest and then bring it back over.  All my light armor is dead except one 251.  I will bring it up behind cover to support the assault on the objective.

I did manage to kill one of the T70s that killed a 251.  Luckily, the other is preoccupied pumping rounds into the dead 251.

Comments:  Not much to say on this one.  I was over confident.  I left one P4 in LOS of all three remaining SU76s and paid for it.  I let my only two MGs get caught in the open by the armored cars, two of which are now dead.  The third reversed out of sight after witnessing the demise of its brothers and cousin SU76s.  My P4s are now occupied with the SU76s and the infantry squad, after a few minor casualties, is coming down the RR track unmolested.  I am putting a platoon of PG into the RR station.  Hopefully they can hold it off until the HT or a P$ can help.  (as the scenario designer, I know that the T70s will start coming and keep the P4s even more occupied.

[thewood1]

T4 for CMBB
 
I suck.  Lost another P4.  Thought I was smart and hunted my two P4's forward and two SU76s popped up and killed one with 4 combined shots.  My HMG broke and ran.  I did get my PG platoon to the station and my other HMG, along with the useless 50mm mortars into position to suppress the SU76s.  Without giving any orders, the HMG openned up on the lead SU76 and forced it to button.
 
Comments:  So far CMBB seems a little better at target selection.  My P4s have appropriately switched targets and prioritized them as I would have.  The HMG, once through its setup, openned up on an SU76 that was 200m away to button it.  I am hoping to shock it with a crew casualty.  While the SUs were out of LOS, my P4s went back to suppressing the infantry coming down the RR track and forced a lot of them to ground and cover.  This gave me time to get the PG to the RR station.

[thewood1]

T4 PCK;

I am much better at PCK.  My P4s advance slowly forward and stop.  At the same time I rush the 251 that was on their left to the RR station.  It distracts the SU76s, which had stopped to engage the P4s.  The P4s pick off two of them after they fired 6 or 7 shots at the 251 before killing it.  I am guessing it took between 10 and twelve shots for the P4s to kill the SUs.  Seems like a lot for non-moving target less than 500m away.  I also start the other 251s forward to scout out the T70s I saw earlier.  The infantry coming down the RR track seems to have paused, but I am most worried about them.

One comment here; one of my P4s became obsessed with the BA64 and ignored SU76s for three or four shots. Only when the BA64 was dead did it switch targets. In the CMBB turn, the P4 immediately switched from the BA64s as soon as it spotted the SU76s. That is why the one 64 got away.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Without giving any orders, the HMG openned up on the lead SU76 and forced it to button.

?

[thewood1]

Mobius, you're not much with words.
 
I assume you are talking about a HMG openning up on an open top vehicle.  It was added in CMBB that a MG (maybe only a HMG) will open up to button or shock an open top AFV.  It is especially useful on thin skinned AFVs because there is a good chance of penetration and damage.

[Erik Rutins]

In PCK this depends on a "likely penetration check" which means that it wouldn't fire on a SU-76 on its own. Right now, you'd have to order it to area fire at the SU-76 to get it to button.