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RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:42 pm
by decaro
ORIGINAL: Big B
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Er... yes, but what would that have to do with cable TELEPHONE (not telegraph)?

Cable telephone to Hawaii was not completed until 1957, though radio-telephone was established by 1931.

Radio-telephone wasn't working on account of "atmospherics," or poor propagation.
ORIGINAL: Big B
The only significants about telegraph cable to Hawaii was that it took only a few minutes in 1903, IF someone really wanted an urgent telegram sent in 1941 - it didn't have to take hours to get there - say from the pentagon.

But unfortunately it was sent as "routine" on a Sunday.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:27 pm
by LargeSlowTarget
ORIGINAL: Big B

Back to the original question in this thread.
I have no dog in this hunt - like I said, I never believed we knew PH in advance...but these days I'm not so sure.
Below is from the site link. The guy certainly has his own agenda and draws his own conclusions for you.
But point by point - is all of the below untrue? Is this all fabricated out of thin air?
[...]

No, not everything is fabricated, but there are fabrications, hearsay, quotes out of context, misinterpretations, distortions, unproven statements and other silly stuff which casts serious doubts about the credibility of this list. Surely the author has his own bias...
Many points merely suggest that war was coming (nothing new) - not that war would start with a suprise attack on PH. I already gave one example of an untrue point - the list includes many other claims that have been disproven. To give one more example:
"* 4 Dec. - The Dutch invoked the ADB joint defense agreement when the Japanese crossed the magic line of 100 East and 10 North. The U.S. was at war with Japan 3 days before they were at war with us."
This is plain bs, since the Dutch government cannot commit the USA to war - only the US Congress can to that. The joint defense agreement were staff talks about a common war plan, not an automatic committment of the US to war once Japanese forces crossed a certain line.
Of course, commenting the list point by point would take more time and scientific effort than can be expected in a forum. If really interested, you should do some reading youself. Recommend you start with the three books by Prange, he provided explanations for many of the points in this list. He is called the 'dean of the PH historians' and considered of presenting a balanced point of view. Also recommend you read some criticial reviews of books from revisionists, e.g. about the glaring errors and misinterpretations made by Stinnett in 'Day of Deceit' as shown by Jacobson and Zimmerman.

EDIT:
Just found another claim in the list that can onyl be regarded as a joke:
"A Dutch sub had visually tracked the attack fleet to the Kurile Islands in early November and this info was passed to DC, but DC did not give it to HI."
A dutch submarine got visual sighting of KB and followed it up to the Kuriles? Yeah, sure... And most ships of KB left Japan for Hittokapu Bay around Nov 19th, which is hardly 'early' November.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:05 pm
by Yamato hugger
Dutch subs wouldnt have had the range to track them there either - unless of course they were refuling in Japan [:)]

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:13 am
by bradfordkay
" the magic line of 100 East and 10 North."

Ummm.... that isn't a line, that is a point. were the Japanese not suppposed to go west of this, east of it, south of it (I assume that north of that point is okay)??? Just another piece of their evidence which cannot stand as truth...

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:07 am
by Ambassador
100° east, 10° north is around the Isthmus of Kra or in the Gulf of Thailand/Siam.  I'm not sure north is so fine, as it's Burma...[:D]
It might be two lines defining a quadrant (north and east of the lines) where jap units should stay.  Going west of 100° east means entering Burma or Malaya, and going south of 10° north opens the whole DEI.  The point is thus not devoid of interest, as a cross of two lines, a violation of either of them being dangerous for the Allies.
 
But in any case, it couldn't mean the US would have been at war automatically, without an Act of Congress.  I don't remember ever reading about an "ADB joint defense agreement" either, except maybe as part of the Singapore conference in April '41... but those were talks for local defensive strategy in case of war with Japan, and the representative for the US were naval officers (not even an admiral, IIRC).

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:27 pm
by Yamato hugger
Britan / France had a mutual defense agreement with Poland and it still took them 3 days to actually declare war. Such agreements are not worth the paper they are written on usually. 10 year non-agression pact between Germany - Russia anyone? Insert the billion other treaties that meant nothing here >_<

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:08 pm
by LargeSlowTarget
ORIGINAL: Ambassador

100° east, 10° north is around the Isthmus of Kra or in the Gulf of Thailand/Siam.  I'm not sure north is so fine, as it's Burma...[:D]
It might be two lines defining a quadrant (north and east of the lines) where jap units should stay.  Going west of 100° east means entering Burma or Malaya, and going south of 10° north opens the whole DEI.  The point is thus not devoid of interest, as a cross of two lines, a violation of either of them being dangerous for the Allies.

But in any case, it couldn't mean the US would have been at war automatically, without an Act of Congress.  I don't remember ever reading about an "ADB joint defense agreement" either, except maybe as part of the Singapore conference in April '41... but those were talks for local defensive strategy in case of war with Japan, and the representative for the US were naval officers (not even an admiral, IIRC).

Correct, 100° east, 10° north is not a point but 'two lines in the sand' where Japanese units should stay.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:27 pm
by bradfordkay
Then it should have said "the magic lines of 100 East and 10 North", not "line". I know, it's probably just bad editing on someone's part, but in navigation you have to be exact...

100 East and 10 North is a point, unless you specifically mention that you are talking about two Lines of Position.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:03 pm
by mdiehl
Lexington was in port and get torpedoed at anchor


That is incorrect. Lexington was underway and sunk by a damage control error; her loss was a fluke more comparable to the loss of Mutsu than, for example, Hornet. The IJN did not sink an American CV underway using Japanese naval aviation until the Battle of Santa Cruz. Coral Sea was both a USN tactical and strategic victory. Two American CVs confronted 3 Japanese CVs, sank one, devastated the air commplements of two others, and repelled the attacking force.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:22 pm
by Ambassador
If "scuttled only because of the damages sustained during a battle" is not being "sunk by the enemy", then the USN did not sink Akagi, Kaga and&nbsp;Hiryu, all three scuttled.&nbsp; Thus, Midway is a draw, since both sides lost one and only one CV to enemy fire...[8|][:-]
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Seriously, Coral Sea is, at best, a tactical draw.&nbsp; A strategic US victory, yes, but certainly not a tactical victory.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:30 pm
by panda124c
ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

I think a certain amount of Jingoism is at play, too. It is sometimes easier for people to think that "we" allowed PH or 9/11 to happen than to admit that "those people", who were stereotyped as little Mr. Moto's with Coke-bottle glasses or bomb weilding, turban wearing terrorists, actually got the drop on us. Some people expect that the gov't is all-seeing, all-knowing and could tell you what I had for breakfast yesterday. But the gov (and military/intel folk) are bureaucracies, too. All the facts that pointed to PH and 9/11 were there but there was NOT one person or group who had all the facts who could say "Uh, guys? There's six Japanese carriers just north of Hawaii. Whatya suppose THEY'RE up too?"
Thank goodness nobody's brought up the Kennedy assassinatin.[&o]
Yes thank goodness nobody mentioned that Dick Cheney was "duck hunting" on the grassy knoll. [:D]

Don't be dissin' Dick after all he did shoot a Lawyer..... [&o]

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:50 pm
by mdiehl
If "scuttled only because of the damages sustained during a battle" is not being "sunk by the enemy", then the USN did not sink Akagi, Kaga and Hiryu, all three scuttled. Thus, Midway is a draw, since both sides lost one and only one CV to enemy fire...


There is no rational analogy between scuttling three ships that are irrecoverably damaged, incapable of making way, cannot be made capable of making way, and that have suffered from serious fire-caused hull-plate warping and consequent unckecked flooding, versus a slightly damaged ship operating under all steam, fully navigable, and making good headway, that is sunk because a fellow neglects to vent a fume-filled void space prior to operating electrical devices. The Japanese carriers at Midway were "scuttled" because there was no other choice.

A better case could be made that IJN carriers "sank Yorktown" because Yorktown was damaged enough to bring it close to sinking even before she was sunk by a Japanese submarine.

Coral Sea was a solid USN win no matter how one views it -- tactically where USN F4Fs trounced IJN A6Ms while sinking one Japanese carrier, or strategically in turning back the Japanese attempt on Port Moresby. The loss of Lexington was a fluke. If the Japanese had lost Zuikaku after Coral Sea had ended (as they darned near did to flooding, once again owning to poor decisions on her return voyage) that too would have been more of an operator error than a clear cut USN victory.


RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:37 pm
by Ambassador
It seems you're impervious to irony.&nbsp; Lex was scuttled because... it was scuttled.&nbsp; There's no point in re-dreaming history.&nbsp; IJN and USN meet at Coral Sea, a CVL and a CV are sunk during the engagement, after having been damaged by enemy fire - it takes much cynicism to tell the Lex was not lost because of the japanese attack.&nbsp; Exactly as much as saying the three afore-mentionned CV were not sunk by the USN.
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Akagi was sunk because of that one bomb which was discussed elsewhere (not in this thread I think).&nbsp; Can't it be said to be a fluke too ?&nbsp; After all, it's only because that given AA-gunner missed his shot that the US plane managed to drop its bomb...
&nbsp;
Whether a ship is sunk because it's been hit by three hundred 1-ton bombs and 17 torpedoes, or between an electrical short-circuit ignited the fumes resulting from one .50 shot entering the hangar by chance and putting the planes afire, doesn't matter.&nbsp; The ship is lost because of enemy operations.&nbsp; Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Or, put in simpler terms : if the ship had not been hit by the enemy, it would not have sunk.&nbsp; This is true for the Lex.&nbsp; This is true for the Yorktown.&nbsp; This is true for the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu & Hiryu.&nbsp; Etc.
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As for "solid win", are you serious man ?&nbsp; The aircraft losses were about the same.&nbsp; A CVL sunk and a CV damaged on one side, one CV sunk and one CV heavily damaged on the other (plus the oiler sunk).&nbsp; At the very best, it's a draw, tactically speaking : the losses of one side were superior to the losses of the other, so it'd rather be a slim japanese tactical victory.&nbsp; Zuikaku was unharmed, and still had 40 planes, and could have had a full wing if they took Shokaku's planes&nbsp;; the USN didn't have an intact CV.
Even strategically speaking, it's an american victory only because of&nbsp;two events who happened after the battle : the fact that Yorktown was miraculously made battle-fit in a few days, and the fact that the japanese didn't merge the two carrier air wings to bring Zuikaku at Midway.&nbsp; It could have been 5 CVs vs 3 CVs, or 5 CVs vs 2 CVs, or 4 CVs vs 2 CVs, with the dire consequences we could imagine.&nbsp; The fact that Coral Sea was a strategic victory is due to post-battle events and decisions consecutive to events in the battle, not directly from the battle.&nbsp; So, marginal strategic victory, not decisive.
&nbsp;
All in all, it was an inconclusive battle, certainly not a solid victory for one side or another.[:-]

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:03 pm
by mdiehl
It seems you're impervious to irony.

I usually just ignore irony, to the benefit of the people who try to use it.
Lex was scuttled because... it was scuttled.

No, actually, it was scuttled because it was irrecoverable. These sorts of things are done for good reasons. Prior to the damage control error that occurred 1 1/2 hours after the last Japanese plane left the scene, while Lexington was making good way, not on fire, and not flooding, an explosion of gasoline vapor occurred. That is a vastly different set of circumstances than the case of Japanese carriers suffering from unresolved uncontrollable fires that started immediately as a consequence of bomb hits, and well-documented flooding, irrecoverable damage in engineering spaces, and complete loss of way that they suffered at Midway. Therefore, you effort to draw an analogy between Lexington at Coral Sea and any Japanese ship lost at Midway is thoroughly flawed, with or without the intended irony.
it takes much cynicism to tell the Lex was not lost because of the japanese attack.

Nope. It just takes an objective look at the facts. The material condition and readiness of Lexington, 1 1/2 hours after she was struck by the last torpedo that hit her, was far superior to that of any Japanese ship at Midway, and comparable to Zuikaku's condition as she retired from Coral Sea. In both instances, poor post-battle decisions were made that almost caused Zui to founder and that did cause Lexington to brew up. Had Zui foundered, no one in their right mind would have said that it was "because of USN action."

If you were a footslogger in the ETO during WW2 and accidently shot yourself in the foot while fleeing an artillery barrage, no one would say you were wounded in the barrage. Probably citations for valor or the purple heart would not be forthcoming.
Can't it be said to be a fluke too ? After all, it's only because that given AA-gunner missed his shot that the US plane managed to drop its bomb...

Depends on which part you view as the "fluke." It was typical of Japanese AA gunners to miss, so that was no fluke. It was typical of most pilots in any navy or air force to miss when dropping ordnance, so that might be viewed as "statistically unlikely." But that bomb started an immediate unresolved fire. Therefore the bomb and its immediate consequences did the deed.
Whether a ship is sunk because it's been hit by three hundred 1-ton bombs and 17 torpedoes, or between an electrical short-circuit ignited the fumes resulting from one .50 shot entering the hangar by chance and putting the planes afire, doesn't matter.

We disagree.
The ship is lost because of enemy operations.

We disagree.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc" is one of many logical fallacies noted by the late eminent scientist Carl Sagan in his "Baloney Detector Kit."
Or, put in simpler terms : if the ship had not been hit by the enemy, it would not have sunk.

Generally true, although Mutsu and numerous other ships allied and otherwise provide exceptions. However, it is incorrect as a generalization to claim that "If a ship that was hit by the enemy eventually sank, it was sunk because of enemy damage." That is clearly NOT true in Lexington's case. And it would not have been true of Yorktown at Midway were one speaking of the consequences of Japanese naval aviation. The plain fact is that Lex was sunk by a damage control error, and Yorktown was sunk by a submarine. The damage on these ships that was caused by enemy action was controlled and the ships were in operable (arguably so in York's case) or recoverable (true in both cases) condition. In contrast, the Japanese CVs at Midway were irrecoverably damaged. Their own ships crews say as much.
As for "solid win", are you serious man ?

Yes.
The aircraft losses were about the same.

No, they weren't.
At the very best, it's a draw, tactically speaking

I disagree. It was a solid win for the USN.
the USN didn't have an intact CV.

That is incorrect.
Even strategically speaking, it's an american victory only because of two events who happened after the battle:

The Japanese withdrew. QED. All strategic victories are ultimately the consequence of someone's decision to discontinue to engage.
the fact that Yorktown was miraculously made battle-fit in a few days

There were no miracles involved. Yorktown was not operation at Midway owing to images of the Virgin Mary appearing in scorched paint, in some mold on a bread crust, or from God's tears weeping from the anchor chains. Yorktown was operational at Midway owing to simple, solid, outstanding engineering work done by people.
and the fact that the japanese didn't merge the two carrier air wings to bring Zuikaku at Midway...


..was a predictable consequence of Japanese doctrine that married carrier air groups to a particular ship, in contrast to USN doctrine that was highly flexible in that regard.
It could have been 5 CVs vs 3 CVs, or 5 CVs vs 2 CVs, or 4 CVs vs 2 CVs, with the dire consequences we could imagine.

Under the circumstances, the presence of 5 Japanese CVs at Midway would almost certainly have resulted in the loss of 5 Japanese CVs and Yorktown because the locations of the Japanese CVs were all known, but the only CV on which the Japanese had a good bead was Yorktown.
So, marginal strategic victory, not decisive.

A decisive strategic victory IMO. The Japanese retired. They made no further effort during the war to obtain Port Moresby by amphibious coups de main.
All in all, it was an inconclusive battle, certainly not a solid victory for one side or another.

It was a solid USN win all around.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:46 pm
by Yamato hugger
So, you are saying Lexington would have exploded and sank regardless of if the Japs had hit her or not, right?

Or was the gasoline leak that sank her caused by battle damage?

Cant have it both ways. She sank as result of enemy action or she didnt. If she didnt, then you are saying she would have blown up anyways. Which she wouldnt have.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:01 pm
by mdiehl
So, you are saying Lexington would have exploded and sank regardless of if the Japs had hit her or not, right?

Or was the gasoline leak that sank her caused by battle damage?

Cant have it both ways. She sank as result of enemy action or she didnt. If she didnt, then you are saying she would have blown up anyways. Which she wouldnt have.

You are incorrect on all counts. "Can't have it both ways" is simply a claim made of ignorance or else it's "The logical fallacy of the excluded middle" (also from Carl Sagan's Baloney Detector Kit.)

A bomb hits a ship. The ship catches on fire. The fire spreads, is not put out, detonating munitions, warping hull plates, allowing the ocean in, destroying means of propulsion, & the ship has no hope of recovery. That ship was sunk by a bomb. It may even strike a Type 93a torp on the deck of a heavy cruiser, setting off a massive explosion among the torp warheads. The ship was still sunk by the bomb that hit it. Not by its torpedoes, a damage control error, the Virgin Mary, or Moby Dick.

A torpedo hits a ship, breaching the hull and causing damage to a gasoline storage tank. It starts a fire, but the fire is extinguished. The hull breach is patched, and flooding so reduced that pumps in the damaged space master the flow of water, and the damaged space is contained. It or another torp stops the ship and floods three boiler rooms, one to a depth of 18", one to 6 feet, and one to 12 feet, but the boiler rooms are pumped out and two of the three boilers are declared ready to relight. The ship regains way, is capable of 20+ knots, can land aircraft, and has restored operations to its deck elevators. But a technician fails to vent a space prior to restoring electrical power, which starts a generator that was probably turned at the time the torp hit. As a consequence a fire not started by the torpedo is ignited. The principal cause of that ship's loss is a damage control error, not a torpedo.


RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:11 am
by Yamato hugger
ORIGINAL: mdiehl


You are incorrect on all counts. "Can't have it both ways" is simply a claim made of ignorance or else it's "The logical fallacy of the excluded middle" (also from Carl Sagan's Baloney Detector Kit.)

No, actually I am not. Either battle damage caused the explosion (or at the very least led to it) or it didnt. Black and white. The damage that lead to the sinking was caused by Japanese bombs. Period. If it wasnt for the battle damage nothing would have happened.

By the way, I didnt bother to read past the above quote. Not going to argue with you on this point. Learned long ago that when you try to argue with a fool, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Have a nice day.

RE: Old Wounds

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:50 am
by jwilkerson
Well this mis-guided "conspiracy theory" thread doesn't even belong on this forum .. but I cannot move threads ... so I have to wait until the personal attacks line gets crossed which it now has been enough times to


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