Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Having explored the Puget Sound Triangle of Fire I do know for a fact that in case of enemy bombardment/invasion, part of the procedure involved an officer rowing out to the enemy battlefleet in order to assign them their proper positions in the anchorage. That way all the effort put into those pre-arranged fire lanes woudn't go to waste. Chivalry in War is not dead after all.

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Bullwinkle

Yes, it was me talking about USS Tennessee.  Was hit by 6" shells off of Saipan (I think) and lost a secondary turret, but also silenced the battery in less than a minute after that.

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

So, to summarize,

1. Do not include warships in amphibous TFs if enemy CDs are present.

My BB's had "escorts don't bombard" when they shelled Miri and got 20+ system damage for their troubles. Unless that base had 14" guns firing back at them I don't see how they got hit if they were standing offshore out of range. As for your cruiser 8" guns' penetration values, what are they at 2000 yds?

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Anyway, I faintly remember (I'm no code expert) that penetration (the chance of penetrating hits) increases at lower ranges (well, it certainly should). And even a 180mm gun would be able to penetrate battleship armor at 2,000 yards. Thusfar I see no problems with the results.

Yes, penetration increases as the range decreases. But not to a great degree. A loooooonnnnnnng time ago, I posted some results from cruiser surface action (HMAS Canberra vs. Mogami) and complained because I had 1 CA and 3 CL's vs Mogami and not a single hit penetrated, even the 4 8" hits at 1k yards. I wasn't lucky enough to get a torpedo hit on her, so she steamed away (from PM to 2 hexes from Rabaul the next phase). She moderately damaged 3 CL's and took 45 non penetrating hits.

I know that the surface routine has since been modified, but not in regards to penetration (I think).

So, basically, if I couldn't get 8" hits to penetrate a CA at 1k yards, then those Russian CD 180mm hits won't penetrate BB armor at 2k yards.

The routine changed so that there are more superstructure hits. If a BB was hit 150 times, it's probable that 50 of them were penetrating hits on the superstructure. The BB would have SYS and Fire damage of 99 by the end of that ordeal. (which will sink it that turn, or the next.)

I think the CD routine is working well. But, ships and invasion task forces should have a logical withdrawal option. There's no logical reason that a BB would take the punishment as suicide instead of retreating.

Right! But if the attacking ship is to have ANY chance of hitting it's own targets, it can't be out there maneuvering like a sports car doing "doughnuts" in the parking lot. It has to give it's own plotting team some consistancy of course and speed for them to do their jobs.

The truth, re the game, is that there is one CD routine that must work for PH as well as Mili, and those two situations are as unlike each other as assaulting with a Marine Division and an Indian Army artillery unit. (For once we are in agreement. One of the game's most regrettable failings is the failure to differentiate between real Coast Defense Installations and just guns mounted on the coast.)

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

So, to summarize,

1. Do not include warships in amphibous TFs if enemy CDs are present.
2. The CD/amphib TF routine will result in the loss or serious damage to the warships.
3. The current routine assumes that the warships steam into the anchorage and drop anchor at point blank range. Their guns can not depress enough to supress the CD units.
4. The warships will be the "meat shield" for the transports but even after they are destroyed damage will still be done to the transports.
5. If, however, you are trying to launch an invasion up a navigable river with CD forts protecting the river's mouth, you can safely sail past the forts without them engaging as long as you are in an amphibious TF. (See Rader's AAR...he is fighting Russia also and pulled this one off.)
6. Computer Admirals and Captains will stay in position like lemmings until their commands are totally destroyed. Retreat is not a consideration. In the binary world, these commanders are all zeroes.

I have to keep telling myself that the entire task force must have strayed into a dense and previously unmarked minefield as there is no other explaination for the loss of so many good ships.

It kind of goes like this You Tube Video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAhFumDrxEE

ORIGINAL: bklooste

supression does NOT work anymore not since the fire rate has been bumbed up. Read the earlier report on a Bombardment force that got smashed.  I do not that with Bombardment BBs have a higher chance to survive ( but still die) prob due to the shorter time.

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Keregulen,

Sorry that I didn't save the combat report to provide definitive proof that I'm telling the truth.  Here was the TF composition:

5 BB's (prewar types)
2 CLAA's
2 CA's
6 DD's

The orders were to bombard, with escorts set to "no bombard".  Mili had and still has been reconned from Makin with a squadron of F-5's and one of B-25's, plus aerial bombing raids from B-24's and B-25's from Tarawa and Makin.  I've also had two CV's hit the place occasionally when they sweep through the Marshalls, and no supply ships have made it there in at least a month and lived.

Every single one of the BB's took 20+ System damage, plus numerous weapon/device damage (mostly AA and secondary weapon mounts).  One of them had 28 System damage.  The two CA's took similar System and weapon damage, the CLAA's and DD's nothing.  IIRC Mili took some port damage and perhaps one or two guns were disabled.

Since Mili is still Japanese, I'll create yet another BB TF and send it down there and put the combat report up here once it occurs.

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Keregulen,

Sorry that I didn't save the combat report to provide definitive proof that I'm telling the truth.  Here was the TF composition:

5 BB's (prewar types)
2 CLAA's
2 CA's
6 DD's

The orders were to bombard, with escorts set to "no bombard".  Mili had and still has been reconned from Makin with a squadron of F-5's and one of B-25's, plus aerial bombing raids from B-24's and B-25's from Tarawa and Makin.  I've also had two CV's hit the place occasionally when they sweep through the Marshalls, and no supply ships have made it there in at least a month and lived.

Every single one of the BB's took 20+ System damage, plus numerous weapon/device damage (mostly AA and secondary weapon mounts).  One of them had 28 System damage.  The two CA's took similar System and weapon damage, the CLAA's and DD's nothing.  IIRC Mili took some port damage and perhaps one or two guns were disabled.

Since Mili is still Japanese, I'll create yet another BB TF and send it down there and put the combat report up here once it occurs.

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Right! But if the attacking ship is to have ANY chance of hitting it's own targets, it can't be out there maneuvering like a sports car doing "doughnuts" in the parking lot. It has to give it's own plotting team some consistancy of course and speed for them to do their jobs.

The truth, re the game, is that there is one CD routine that must work for PH as well as Mili, and those two situations are as unlike each other as assaulting with a Marine Division and an Indian Army artillery unit. (For once we are in agreement. One of the game's most regrettable failings is the failure to differentiate between real Coast Defense Installations and just guns mounted on the coast.)

Sorry a ship will always maneuver to the detriment of a firing solution. Thats what most of the FC in battle ships was about and why they were far superior in WWII then WWI . Being able to maneuver , quickly determine a solution despite roll etc. There are a large number of cases in ship to ship fights where they zig zag , then quickly turn , fire ( and bring most turrets into play) and continue evading rinse and repeat .

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Keregulen,

Sorry that I didn't save the combat report to provide definitive proof that I'm telling the truth.  Here was the TF composition:

5 BB's (prewar types)
2 CLAA's
2 CA's
6 DD's

The orders were to bombard, with escorts set to "no bombard".  Mili had and still has been reconned from Makin with a squadron of F-5's and one of B-25's, plus aerial bombing raids from B-24's and B-25's from Tarawa and Makin.  I've also had two CV's hit the place occasionally when they sweep through the Marshalls, and no supply ships have made it there in at least a month and lived.

Every single one of the BB's took 20+ System damage, plus numerous weapon/device damage (mostly AA and secondary weapon mounts).  One of them had 28 System damage.  The two CA's took similar System and weapon damage, the CLAA's and DD's nothing.  IIRC Mili took some port damage and perhaps one or two guns were disabled.

Since Mili is still Japanese, I'll create yet another BB TF and send it down there and put the combat report up here once it occurs.

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Uhh, Keregulein, the CLAA's didn't bombard at all.  If the Mili defenders have only 15cm guns then the BB's and CA's should have been able to sit outside their range and bombard to their heart's content.