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RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:03 pm
by Mobius
ORIGINAL: Ratzki
I think that we are on the same wavelength overall, my question comes back to first shot hit chances on a stationary target within each calibres effective ranges. Is the differences due to optics, or what? I just can't figure why a larger slower shooting calibre would have any less chances of striking it's target then would a faster shooting gun. I do understand the the chances for error increase with the higher arcing trajectory of the slower gun as range increases but without knowing the 152mm's characteristics I would say that out to 500m would there be any less chance of hitting it's target as the trajectory beteen the two point blank ranges would be reduced and the trajectory beteen these two ranges would not be that great.
It's a few things. The optics is one. That along with training lets the gunner get a better estimate of range. The dispersion of the gun is another. But the largest component at long range is the flight path. Here is a British War Office document with tests of the 6pdr and 17pdr. We might assume the crews had the same training and the guns had similar sights. Up to around 500 yds they both have a very good chance to hit.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:07 pm
by Mad Russian
ORIGINAL: Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Are there any other KV-2 accounts?
I haven't found anything on the effectiveness of the KV-2 tank vs German tanks. The accounts are all German and they fall in the, "OMG LOOK AT THAT!", category.
The action at Lipki had 2 German tanks knocked out but it doesn't say by what.
Good Hunting.
MR
I just ordered the new book on the KV. Maybe that will shed some light on why some authors describe it having 110mm or more on the front turret at odds with some photos.
One German source claimed it to have had 95mm front armour.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:07 pm
by Ratzki
Mobius, thanks for going through the steps for us all. I think I got a satifying answer. Was good to go over some information.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:43 am
by Yoozername
ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Why are you always 'selling' something????
Lewis, Mr.Tittles and your "others"...
The management has assured me that you've been warned what will happen if you go into troll-mode in regard to the PzC games.
Wanna try them out?
Seems you had to troll out in the StuG thread? Well done.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:10 pm
by Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Are there any other KV-2 accounts?
I haven't found anything on the effectiveness of the KV-2 tank vs German tanks. The accounts are all German and they fall in the, "OMG LOOK AT THAT!", category.
The action at Lipki had 2 German tanks knocked out but it doesn't say by what.
Good Hunting.
MR
I just ordered the new book on the KV. Maybe that will shed some light on why some authors describe it having 110mm or more on the front turret at odds with some photos.
I got the new KV book today. Indeed both the MT-1 and MT-2 front turrets had 110mm of armor. The early one at 15 degrees, the later vertical.
The tanks were said to be well crafted and the armor plates mitered so it isn't apparent what the armor thickness is just from looking from the side.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:38 am
by Mad Russian
The turret front armour is only 75mm according to the film on KV-2 we all watched.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:19 am
by Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
That's just not possible. Just ask Yoozername. The turret front armour is only 75mm. He's the self acclaimed expert so you need to throw that book away, because, as he's said before, he's right and the book is wrong.
The construction seems to have fooled a number of those who viewed it. The Germans who stenciled the 75 on the front and the guy who measured 95mm after knocking it out.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:40 am
by Mad Russian
So, are you going to adjust our ratings on it?
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:53 am
by Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
So, are you going to adjust our ratings on it?
Yeah on the Model 1940 only. Right now some of the front area is 9cm, so that will have to go to 11.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:35 am
by Yoozername
Turret side armor is the same as before, correct?
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:41 am
by Mobius
ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Turret side armor is the same as before, correct?
Right.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:08 pm
by Yoozername
I wouldn't imagine the turret side armor being much of a challenge to a US bazooka. See the video below. Note that the KV-1 that has been destroyed by close assault has a KV-2 behind it. Note the ammunition fire. Its at 3:30 if you want to fast forward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljqvytZSxAM&feature=player_embedded
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:42 pm
by Mobius
ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I wouldn't imagine the turret side armor being much of a challenge to a US bazooka. See the video below. Note that the KV-1 that has been destroyed by close assault has a KV-2 behind it. Note the ammunition fire. Its at 3:30 if you want to fast forward.
We really don't get a idea of what went on there. There are Germans walking way down the road apparently unaware of the danger posed by the KVs. Those tanks could have been knocked out hours or days before or abandoned and left there.
RE: Playing with the Big Boys
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
by Yoozername
How do you know the guys way down the road are Germans?
Its obvious that events are spliced together also. Its seemingly a close assault on the KV-1 with a large explosive device going off. The next section shows the vehicle behind the KV-1, apparently a KV-2, erupting in an ammunition fire. Since the smoke from the KV-1 explosion has dissapated, there appears to be that some time has lapsed. The final shot seems to be taken from across that same road and the KV-2 fire has burnt out. Note shriveled tanker next to KV-2. The first KV-1 is no longer visable but further down the road is another KV or vehicle.
In any case, these 'big-boys' are looking like they lost.