Axis Players Think Tank

[raizer]

Im of the opinion that certain russian units should run away from certain terrain areas and certain terrain areas deserve massive resistance...you need to mix it up as the russians. 

Mynok and Acr have me thinking about that mynok gambit....I think that for the germans, lennigrad is a trap in pbem.  There are just too many swamp hexes, with easy rail access for the soviets to move stuff in and out of.  I think the move to the south, where there are numerous pop centers and easier terrain to mount panzer offensives over larger areas is the way to go.  More open ground, less swamps, less rail hexes to key blocking points. Lennigrad is just one big opportunity for the soviet player to canalize  your precious and limited panzers. 

[Flaviusx]

Raizer: if you are running away anywhere past the Dnepr, you're doing it wrong. It's true that the north had more adverse terrain. But a runaway in the south will blow up in your face if you do it past the Dnepr.

And if you runaway straight to the Dnepr without imposing some kind of delay, you won't have time to dig in and fortify...and the Germans may bounce the river. And then you'll be in a real pickle. Because it's wide open panzer country down south and the Donbas is rich in industry and manpower.

A runaway in the center means the Germans get a shot at Moscow with plenty of sunshine left over. You have to slow them down there, too.

Running away isn't the answer. It really is not. A first class German player will crap all over you.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Gentlemen you can't fight in here, this is a war room!
 
(Sorry, I needed to say that - but this is an ideas thread, like a seiminar, I don't think it should be like an internet forum...)

[raizer]

no Im saying, run away to the rivers and leave certain stuff in checkerboard, whatever that you dont mind losing...but Im running away with those early units that I think I can salvage into something.  Balance between giving up units for time and space but also preserving something that can form up behind natural defense lines.

The hardest part for me in sov pbem is dealing with the clutter in the opening turns. I think one way to reduce it is to go checkerboard and let the stuff die and parcel out units that you start to notice and "care about lol",... give them the good leaders and move them to the rear defense areas.

[Flaviusx]

I generally expend the frontier armies west of the Dnepr and dig in with reserves and reinforcements. The only stuff I try to get out is the motorized divisions, and that's for AP farming purposes.

Many Soviet players have this mistaken idea they should be saving the tank divisions. These are rather useless. It's the rifle divisions that really matter in 1941.

[raizer]

you go static with them and acquire APs?

[karonagames]

AXIS think tank.

[Flaviusx]

Bob, I'm trying to drive a stake through the heart of the runaway vampire here. And to show that this is an Axis non problem.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
Well these types of meaningless and non-objective comments by Oleg Mastruko doesn't surprise me. He has offered nothing constructive IMO to date and I believe by now is just being ignored

Unlike you, who start a new "INSANITY!!!", "MADNESS!!" threads every other day, when your Panzer Death Stars suffer 10 casualties from unworthy Sovs? [:D]

I am here among other things to have fun. Forum Drama Queens, and you most definitely are one, are sure way to have some fun......

[karonagames]

Guys, please, no need for the name calling. We all want to have fun, and make a great game better. Everyone has different ways of expressing themselves, and English is not always everyone's first language. Please respect this.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Guys, please, no need for the name calling. We all want to have fun, and make a great game better. Everyone has different ways of expressing themselves, and English is not always everyone's first language. Please respect this.

One way to do that would be to restrain from naming threads "madness, insanity this is Sparta...." for what appears to be really laughable complaint. Practically everyone in the "insanity" threads said that Ara's "insane" results seem pretty normal and are nothing to get nervous about.

When a guy does that repeatedly, I think I am entitled to call him Drama Queen. Are we all so politically correct that even a Drama Queen is an insult?? [X(]

[karonagames]

I'm not a moderator, but I did start this thread. It has gone off topic, so I think I can draw attention to that. I cannot control what other people call their threads. I understand it is often done to grab everyone's attention, but the author has to deal with the attention, good or bad.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I'm not a moderator, but I did start this thread. It has gone off topic, so I think I can draw attention to that. I cannot control what other people call their threads. I understand it is often done to grab everyone's attention, but the author has to deal with the attention, good or bad.

This is just what I was afraid of Big A. A good intention getting muddy. Let us hope that all of us can refocus on what this thread if for, especially if it helps out the developers and testers out in there jobs to provide us with a better product in the end.

[sross]

I have only played the AI, which is probably the best ever. My longest game is going right now on turn 90 something as the Axis. I would like to see the ability to create support units and HQ's for both sides, not just the SU. At least HQ's for Axis, but SU's would be a welcome addition. Especially as the war goes on, it seems like I lose 4 arty bn's for every one I gain. There is all sorts of unused equipment in the pools that could be used for SU's and lord knows I have a couple extra AP's laying around.

I understand that this is a historical game for the Axis OOB, but it would be nice to have a little input to shape it. I'd also like to be able to build more fighter squadrons, never seem to have enough of those even though I have thousands of planes in the pools.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
It also looks like Axis inability to capture key manpower centres is allowing the Red Army to recruit large numbers of additional men - the recruitment multiplier in 1941 is quite high.

So it looks like the challenge for the Axis Player remains reducing Red Army strength, while capturing the Manpower centres to prevent them recovering their strength. This then leads to the ability to get Kharkov and the Donbas cities before the blizzard, and still be able to put a decent defence together. Personally I am finding this very hard to do, and am having to send many more Panzers divisions south than were there historically, this in turn means I can't get close to Tula and Voronezh.

Keep the info coming.

Hi BigAnorak,

I get ur point, that said i've played a couple of vs AI Axis CGs now, capturing both Leningrad and Moscow. So going beyond what u describe. I've thot of pointing it out earlier and chatted a bit with Joel about it.
With the current evacuation rules and my experince of how it works im not sure how much effect taking Kharkov and Donbas cities would make.
I've been sorta attentive to this point and even if u make sure that soviets only get one evac roll on cities if at all possible. U many times see those cities with 5-6-7 pop points left after the single evac. I mean 5-6 cities with lets say 6 points each is 36 points plus surrounding minor cities shouldnt be more than 100 pop points setting a high figur. Thats 5,500 in '41 and 5000 men lost per turn. Ofc its some thing, but i dont see it making a huge difference.

I tried to research it a bit but as i dont speak any russian im pretty much left with sources in english where the relability of the figurs is prolly questionble. Im sure Pavel can do much better with sources.
Non the less the figurs in those english sources is between 1-2m officially evacuated. Prolly more on own hand, but still.
Thats with 2m, 40 pop points. I see lots more evacuated currently.

Other than that there are some holes, i can understand from a game mechanism point of view but still from sense point of view makes little sense.
Historicly tho surronded Leningrad wasnt massivly evacuated.
Taken it a few times where its been totally surrounded including Lake Lagoda it usually only has around 20% left of the pop and the rest is evaced. How 2-3 million people can sneak through german lines is ofc some thing of a mystery.
U could ofc argue they been evaced before hand. Point here being historicly there is nothing to support that would happen on such a large scale.
The real funny thing is ofc if u leave it to '42 before u capture non is evaced tho its the exact same situasion.
Sure i understand u have to make some rules and the simpler usually the better, but it does leave some non sense situasion.
In 1 game where i had taken both Moscow and Leningrad tho both totally surrounded the evac of those cities was pretty complete. Chita had a population of just below 20mil. Thats several times the population of Moscow. Thats alot of houses that have to be build in the mongolian winter to support that amount of people.[:D]
Again chit happens with randomness but it wasnt like it was the only city people had evaced too, so it says alot of amount of evacing that currently takes place in game.

Maybe there should be some modifiers, like from isolation and so on. The futher east u go the less evacs and so on so less is evaced.
Other than that the strain it would put on the RR evacing so large numbers doesnt seem to be counted into RR capacity.
In some sense u are penalized as axis for doing well in '41 vs '42 where there is no evac any more.
Sorry for semi russian side high jacking the thread but u brought it up.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[karonagames]

Yes we did have a lot of debate about the evacuations, but as you noted trying to change things too much would complicate matters. I think we need to see more SU OOB numbers when the Axis have captured more manpower centres.

[Walloc]

Ok giving some numbers then. in the game mentioned. Leningrad, Vyshny Volocheck, Kalinin, Moscow, Tula, Kursk and Stalino was the line held after winter. Had gone some what beyound before blizzard set in. At end of the last snow turn in nov i had Soviet OOB at 1.98m. After Blizzard it was at 5,7m. After mud 7,2m. So it didnt seem to dent the abillity to regain manpower particular much. which surprised me a bit. Do note it wasnt until after this i payed particular attention, trying to lower the number of evac rolls for each hex. Tho for example moscow all fell with 1 roll for each hex.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

[karonagames]

Ok giving some numbers then. in the game mentioned. Leningrad, Vyshny Volocheck, Kalinin, Moscow, Tula, Kursk and Stalino was the line held after winter. Had goe some what beyound before blizzard set in. At end of the last snow turn in nov i had Soviet OOB at 1.98m. After Blizzard it was at 5,7m. After mud 7,2m. So it didnt seem to dent the abillity to regain manpower particular much. which surprised me a bit. Do note i wasnt until this i payed particular attention, trying to lower the number of evac rolls for each hex. Tho for example moscow all fell with 1 roll for each hex.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

This was AI on normal? Those numbers look high to me. Might need a save for that.

[Walloc]

Yup AI normal.
I think i only have a save from turn 17 left from that game left but ill look. i have from other games tho.
Let me know if u want me to go look more closely and what u need in particular.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[karonagames]

If you have anything with the historical line + leningrad or moscow, post-blizzard, with SU OOB at more than 6 million, then this would be worth looking at.