Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: alfonso
EDIT: in addition, I don't understand why fighting around Kursk in 1945 is funnier than fighting around Berlin in 1945.

Alfonso, it is not "funnier" because I am starting to suspect that quite many people on these forums believe Germany should have won in the Eastern Front. Only IF... [:D]

In the WitP forum these people are rara avis though: imagine a "Japan should be able to invade the West Coast and force the Americans to surrender". In the aformentioned forum this would sound like the words of a lunatic, believe me.

They simply don't want to see the FACTS. After the catastrophic blizzard the Germans only managed to perform a LIMITED offensive in the south. And to do so they had to literally scrap the barrel: minor Axis Allies covering the flanks of the advancing German armies (which of course led to the 6th Army disaster), men from the AGN and AGC were needed... And we are talking about the 1942 year [X(] If this does NOT prove this war was too much for the Germans then boy... Only a German fanboyism may explain it! [8D]

It has already been said ad nauseam. A German "victory" is the Soviets at let's say 10 hexes of Berlin at the end of the scenario or something like that (Berlin not captured that is). Oh well... [:D]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: alfonso
EDIT: in addition, I don't understand why fighting around Kursk in 1945 is funnier than fighting around Berlin in 1945.

They simply don't want to see the FACTS. After the catastrophic blizzard the Germans only managed to perform a LIMITED offensive in the south. And to do so they had to literally scrap the barrel: minor Axis Allies covering the flanks of the advancing German armies (which of course led to the 6th Army disaster), men from the AGN and AGC were needed... And we are talking about the 1942 year [X(] If this does NOT prove this war was too much for the Germans then boy... Only a German fanboyism may explain it! [8D]

It has already been said ad nauseam. A German "victory" is the Soviets at let's say 10 hexes of Berlin at the end of the scenario or something like that (Berlin not captured that is). Oh well... [:D]

Warspite1

+1

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

They simply don't want to see the FACTS. After the catastrophic blizzard the Germans only managed to perform a LIMITED offensive in the south. And to do so they had to literally scrap the barrel: minor Axis Allies covering the flanks of the advancing German armies (which of course led to the 6th Army disaster), men from the AGN and AGC were needed... And we are talking about the 1942 year [X(] If this does NOT prove this war was too much for the Germans then boy... Only a German fanboyism may explain it!

It has already been said ad nauseam. A German "victory" is the Soviets at let's say 10 hexes of Berlin at the end of the scenario or something like that (Berlin not captured that is). Oh well...

Generally speaking I perfectly agree with your reasoning....

Incidentally, that's why I say that 42 campaign and Op Blau scenarios that some people suggest playing, will end in tears. It just puts Axis is *disastrous* situation right from the start (as it should be, it's not game's fault). 42 AARs written so far prove me right. I honestly don't know why would anyone accept playing 42 GC vs human, it's like taking over a football/soccer game when you're 0:2 down at halftime.

So, the main reason to play 41 GC as Germans is probably not to win outright, but to get better than historic positions for 42 and beyond!

However, that's the problem - current winter mess simply prevents them from EVER getting "better than history" lines in 42! That's why I named my AAR "In search for spring miracle" because that's the current goal of this game and community, to find the formula for playable spring 42, for games that start in 41.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I honestly don't know why would anyone accept playing 42 GC vs human, it's like taking over a football/soccer game when you're 0:2 down at halftime.

Because if at the end you lose "only" 0:4 you "win".

Well, I guess you don't like the 44 campaign either...[8|]

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Because if at the end you lose "only" 0:4 you "win".

Well, I guess you don't like the 44 campaign either...[8|]

44 GC at first sight seems more winnable for the Axis in game terms than 42, but who knows? Only those who played thru it could autoritatively comment.

Another problem with the "Germans COULD win (and I am thinking about a total victory, as opposed to the SU at 10 hexes of Berlin)" is that the designers did NOT add this term to the equation... Correctly, in my opinion.

Because given that the Germans did not force the Soviet Union to surrender we must "invent" or "deduce" what could have forced the Soviets to surrender (in the game). In other words, a "what if".

Historical research that is: most of the Soviet population (aka manpower) was in the European part, not past the Urals. Same thing with food production, industry, etc.

So, a Blitzkrieg which sees for example in 1941 the German hordes in Kazan, Gorky, etc., might be a decisive victory in the real world? We just don't know that. It would be arbitrary (if we apply this rule to the game).

EDIT: it would be like saying if the Japanese wipe all the American carriers out in 1942 then the American government would sue for peace [8D]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

They simply don't want to see the FACTS. After the catastrophic blizzard the Germans only managed to perform a LIMITED offensive in the south. And to do so they had to literally scrap the barrel: minor Axis Allies covering the flanks of the advancing German armies (which of course led to the 6th Army disaster), men from the AGN and AGC were needed... And we are talking about the 1942 year [X(] If this does NOT prove this war was too much for the Germans then boy... Only a German fanboyism may explain it!

It has already been said ad nauseam. A German "victory" is the Soviets at let's say 10 hexes of Berlin at the end of the scenario or something like that (Berlin not captured that is). Oh well...

Generally speaking I perfectly agree with your reasoning....

Incidentally, that's why I say that 42 campaign and Op Blau scenarios that some people suggest playing, will end in tears. It just puts Axis is *disastrous* situation right from the start (as it should be, it's not game's fault). 42 AARs written so far prove me right. I honestly don't know why would anyone accept playing 42 GC vs human, it's like taking over a football/soccer game when you're 0:2 down at halftime.

So, the main reason to play 41 GC as Germans is probably not to win outright, but to get better than historic positions for 42 and beyond!

However, that's the problem - current winter mess simply prevents them from EVER getting "better than history" lines in 42! That's why I named my AAR "In search for spring miracle" because that's the current goal of this game and community, to find the formula for playable spring 42, for games that start in 41.

Ehhmmm, Oleg. Maybe you should have played as the Germans.[;)]

OK, well firing up the turn....

I'm kinda stuck here agreeing with TD, myself. I don't want to name names, but someone posted yesterday that AGN had the best defense going into winter? Well, it was kinda one sided presentation.... I mean, do we just ignore the 120 mile yawning gap at times around VL in between AGC and AGN? And I don't think that 2nd Shock Army was a pleasent diversion for the Germans until they were surrounded in the Spring.

No, until the forum has a consensus on what the blizzard results were in the actual war (gee, are those Monkeys getting close yet?[:D]), I'm kinda hoping the Devs simply "turn away from the screen" and go on deving (lol) happily. This place can get ya down, for sure.[:)]
-----------------------------------------

PS: Hmm, no wonder you had a question about the Fins and interdiction. My Southern Finns haven't activated, and it's turn 5? Come to think of it, northern section didn't activate turn 3? And they should have activated last turn (the 80% or whatever in the South), and didn't. Hmmm.....Well, don't know what to do about that. Will play rest of turn for now.

The Romanians, VIII Hungarian Corp, 2 brigades of Mobile Corps, now the Finns are 1 turn late (northern) and not even activated yet (southern 80%). Dang strange activation schedule in this game.

I will email you in a while. Gonna eat some lunch and contemplate turn (and life).[:D]

it's like taking over a football/soccer game when you're 0:2 down at halftime.

I'd take scoring 2 in extra time for a draw, but then Brits can can play cricket for 5 days and be happy with a draw![:)]

Senno, don't worry about the Finns. They are basically irrelevant on this story as long as the Germans do not capture Leningrad, link with them. The Soviet player has to block the frontier line though.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Senno, don't worry about the Finns. They are basically irrelevant on this story as long as the Germans do not capture Leningrad, link with them. The Soviet player has to block the frontier line though.

Yeah, I know. Sadly they are my Finns. I have to worry about them a little bit...

Dang Mannerheim, I bet he contrives to not cut the Murmansk rail line as well....=P

PM Sent to you TD.

I am afraid I must disagree.

History shows us that the Germans did NOT retreat the first winter. They took their lumps and held.
They did suffer losses, and so did the Soviets.

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

Any simulation, that allows one side to gain a lock on victory, regardless of the actions of the opposing side,
does NOT reflect reality. That is NOT what happened.

I have been able to simply drive back down the road from Moscow, brushing aside, or killing whatever the AI
tosses in my way. In fact, I see no need to worry about the North and South. If you take Berlin, who cares
if he is still sitting twenty miles from Leningrad?

I must say, that in my opinion, that is more than slightly ahistoric.

A player can't draw any reasonable conclusions when playing against the AI. Humans are much more devious than any AI could ever be. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

To a draw? Do you mean that in the spring of 1943 things were 50%/50%?

Ahhh..victory. Victory in the game is not the same thing as victory in the war. And victory can be assigned in many different ways.

Current implementation is kind of arbitrary in that it points assigned at the end. The end justifies all means. No need to take Moscow, Stalingrad...the oil..unless it buys you more time then the loss of troops you lose.

Sadly, you need to sprinkle benchmark victories through out the game....and they can be sudden death.

Note: this has nothing to do with actual victory in the war..I am only talking about victory in the game.

Example: Germans take Kiev, Minsk, Novgorod by end of August, 1941. German Victory.

Germans take Moscow by December 31, 1941. German Victory.

Germans take Stalingrad and Baku by December 31, 1942. German Victory.
Germans take Leningrad, Sevastapol, Moscow by December 31, 1942 German Victory.


There can be more. I am sure inventive minds can come up with other ways to reward the player who can plays the game well enough to win.

As an added bonus, it encourages historical like behaviour. And can give the germans some purpose beyond 'hold Berlin end 1945'

"However, that's the problem - current winter mess simply prevents them from EVER getting "better than history" lines in 42! "
 
Oleg,
 
No offense, but having read this unfounded psychorigid chorus one too many times, one must conclude that your manifold failures to acheive this goal simply means that you are simply less able than the original Feldmarschals. That you can't should not impugne other's abilities.
 
I, too, beleive that a German victory in the game is decided on the last turn, on the outskirts of Berlin. And this is how the Axis player should conduct the campaign.
 
Marquo [;)]

ORIGINAL: alfonso

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

To a draw? Do you mean that in the spring of 1943 things were 50%/50%?

Without defining what 50%/50% means, that is hard to answer.
Between April and June of 1943 I see no significant Red Army drives.

In terms of Grand Strategy, things were still bad for the Germans.

It would be an interesting scenario to postulate a Soviet offensive in the teeth of a
full strength German panzer force.

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

ORIGINAL: alfonso

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

However, the war did NOT end in 1942. It didnt end in 1943. In fact after losing an entire army,
Manstein still fought them to a draw in the spring of 1943.

To a draw? Do you mean that in the spring of 1943 things were 50%/50%?

Without defining what 50%/50% means, that is hard to answer.
Between April and June of 1943 I see no significant Red Army drives.

In terms of Grand Strategy, things were still bad for the Germans.

It would be an interesting scenario to postulate a Soviet offensive in the teeth of a
full strength German panzer force.

My definition of 50%/50% is as follows:

Germany (and allied nations) had A% of probabilities of winning the war.
The Soviet Union (and allied nations) had B% of probabilities of winning the war.

and then, A=B

There could be a draw, defined by C%=100-A-B

(But perhaps when you mentioned a draw, you were referring to a "temporary" draw...?)

ORIGINAL: alfonso

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

ORIGINAL: alfonso




To a draw? Do you mean that in the spring of 1943 things were 50%/50%?

Without defining what 50%/50% means, that is hard to answer.
Between April and June of 1943 I see no significant Red Army drives.

In terms of Grand Strategy, things were still bad for the Germans.

It would be an interesting scenario to postulate a Soviet offensive in the teeth of a
full strength German panzer force.

My definition of 50%/50% is as follows:

Germany (and allied nations) had A% of probabilities of winning the war.
The Soviet Union (and allied nations) had B% of probabilities of winning the war.

and then, A=B

There could be a draw, defined by C%=100-A-B

(But perhaps when you mentioned a draw, you were referring to a "temporary" draw...?)

By that definition, the day the USA entered the war, ALL the Axis nations should have surrendered

The Axis had NO CHANCE of winning. NONE. Not even if they had managed to get nukes.

The draw I meant was forcing the enemy to stop trying to hurt you.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"However, that's the problem - current winter mess simply prevents them from EVER getting "better than history" lines in 42! "

Oleg,

No offense, but having read this unfounded psychorigid chorus one too many times, one must conclude that your manifold failures to acheive this goal simply means that you are simply less able than the original Feldmarschals. That you can't should not impugne other's abilities.

I, too, beleive that a German victory in the game is decided on the last turn, on the outskirts of Berlin. And this is how the Axis player should conduct the campaign.

Marquo [;)]

throwing out things like that alienates part of a very limited customer base that this game needs to turn a profit. I am sure Oleg does not speak alone but has a silent following and as for myself I do agree with some of his concerns.

ORIGINAL: Marquo
No offense, but having read this unfounded psychorigid chorus one too many times, one must conclude that your manifold failures to acheive this goal simply means that you are simply less able than the original Feldmarschals. That you can't should not impugne other's abilities.

I don't think I am "rigid", however I am yet to see one (ONE) GC 41 human vs human game that reached spring 42 in playable state. I am aware that definition of what is playable and what is not may differ as well.

I am not crying that the sky is falling, or anything like that. Maybe the path to spring 42 is out there, we only need to play more? Maybe we need a patch? I don't know in the meantime I am just stating the obvious..... and am ready to play anyone (as Soviet), as time permits, in search of that elusive goal.