Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Bletchley, you're just quibbling here. My point stands.

You made several points in your post. One was that the Soviet launched a concerted operation along 2/3 of the front, without giving a time frame for that statement. The other was that I was absolutely wrong, when I gave a time frame but dismissed the effort of the Kalinin, Western and Central fronts as a side show.

I said that the major effort, from August to March 1944, was done along the curve that goes from Kharkov to Lvov, south of the Pripyat marshes. You say that's absolutely wrong, while the dates clearly point to all major efforts taking place south of the Pripyat from November to March. I was partially wrong [:)]

I might be quibbling - just raising objections? - but I don't like being thrown into a sack with unpalatable companions which I haven't chosen.

Now that we get so embroiled in semiotics, let's discuss about the meaning of "staggered" and "broad".

Staggered as in what? As in one operation waiting for another to succeed? Or staggered as in operations overlapping to catch Germans flatfooted on purpose (Mars and Uranus comes to my mind) or because of problems with planning and deploying the forces to execute them or because spent troops having to stop and refit? Because, if it's "staggered" as in the second case, then indeed the Soviets executed staggered operations.

Now, broad as in what? Or, better, broader than what? Than Case Blue? Than Barbarossa? Than Case Yellow? Were broad front offensive something particular to the Soviet Art of Operational War? Germans did a few "broad" offensives when they had the resources for it.

Really, I hate getting like this. But guys, seems that posting on these forums without getting pelted, scolded or blatantly rejected, is sometimes harder than convincing editors of a scientific journal that the draft research note you sent them isn't a joke, a fake or both.

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Zeb, Sinyavin operation took place in August - September 1942. I can't check that reference, I don't have the book. I can't find any reference on the Internet on major soviet operations to lift Leningrad Siege after Polar Star, in April 1943. Perhaps there were a third Sinyavin offensive, but my understanding was that after the Polar Star fiasco things got quiet up there.

Actually went all the way up to five or six offensives there by mid-September. Last one cost Soviets 10k non-recoverable, the one before that 21k non-recoverable, and Germans were at the 'one more and we need to bug' stage of planning. Immediately after Kursk, Stavka ordered an offensive using 8th, 55th, and 67th armies as they reckoned force ratios were right to go on the offensive again and this pretty much continued all the way through til September.

You are still quibbling. And playing semantic games to boot. Although admittedly there is a boundary issue here between staggered and broad front offensives. A sufficiently loose interpretation of these could even define the 1944 summer offensive as broad.

I just find it refreshing that we are now arguing about how broad and for how long the Soviets could sustain offensives in 1943 and beyond, rather then endlessly rehashing arguments about the First Blizzard rule. The game is making progress, and I for one think the Eastern Front was of such an unimaginable scale and complexity and had so many dramatic shifts of initiative, that the amount the designers have gotten right already for the early period is deeply impressive. Given time, hopefully that will extend to later periods. Even if 1943 is never quite right, I have certainly gotten my money's worth and many times that already from just playing with 1941.

All that said, I will continue to quibble too...

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You are still quibbling. And playing semantic games to boot. Although admittedly there is a boundary issue here between staggered and broad front offensives. A sufficiently loose interpretation of these could even define the 1944 summer offensive as broad.

How about this: It was a staggered broad offensive? [:D]
Seriously though. In 1944 there where 4 operations each with approximately a month in between. Even Glatz mentions this "gap" was for logistical reasons.